Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?

[Hawkeye_UK]

Decoy I would suggest you guys stop teasing so much then... Its not funny...

 

So If you rely on SOUTH ATLANTIC (I belive the map is called, right?), the Mig 23 and the AMX to go by, I suggest you start treating your southamerican customers a bit better...

 

I Believe the map is named after the Islands that are there, the Falkland's Map, its listed as a thread on the Razbam main forum page not South Atlantic, that's a huge area and the map is all about the Falklands hope that helps if your looking for info on it.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Hawkeye_UK

[Hawkeye_UK]

Is or is not Decoy a member of Razbam?

Or are there now over 500 comments and not one single one from Razbam?

 

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Decoy was the old community manger that was managing these forum's upto 3 weeks ago.

 

No clarification of his exact role within Razbam has been made that i'm aware of.

[skyblazer1]

We know that Razbam has some military contracts. That's probably where the real money is. Perhaps if we really care about quality work coming out of all flight sim developers, we should let razbam's reputation be known to friends and colleagues who work for the air forces of various countries. Talking to people who work in contracting, acquisitions, and training can probably go a long way towards steering contracts away from a company that doesn't create the best products, or the best customer relations -- and in the end that will better serve our countries and the entertainment community.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[NineLine]

Is or is not Decoy a member of Razbam?

Or are there now over 500 comments and not one single one from Razbam?

 

Skickat från min D5503 via Tapatalk

 

Decoy is a member of RAZBAM.

[CoBlue]

ED is not taking any responsibility for 3rd-party's whatsoever. 3rd-party's decide when a module is, out of EA, feature-complete & finished.

Interview with Katia Peredenko(ED COO), specifically about Razbam situation, she even says that Razbam products "are quite good":

 

Yet, ED is taking ≈30% on every 3rd-party module sold. But their obligation towards us paying customers stops there. 3rd-partys can do whatever they want.

 

This is unacceptable, as 3rd-partys can practically pump & dump modules as they wish without any repercussions.

 

I was always under the impression that ED would protect us, when 3rd-party devs don't deliver or misbehave contractually. Apparently that's not the case at all.

[NineLine]

 

This is unacceptable, as 3rd-partys can practically pump & dump modules as they wish without any repercussions.

 

 

Yes, totally unacceptable if the Harrier was being 'pumped & dumped', which it is not.

 

I was always under the impression that ED would protect us, when 3rd-party devs don't deliver or misbehave contractually. Apparently that's not the case at all.

 

Well I guess that is the danger of jumping into a thread late and not reading everything, we have been working with RAZBAM all week on this, so please try not to get too riled up at this point, they are still very much working on the Harrier, and we are working on getting all your concerns addressed. Thanks.

[NineLine]

We know that Razbam has some military contracts. That's probably where the real money is. Perhaps if we really care about quality work coming out of all flight sim developers, we should let razbam's reputation be known to friends and colleagues who work for the air forces of various countries. Talking to people who work in contracting, acquisitions, and training can probably go a long way towards steering contracts away from a company that doesn't create the best products, or the best customer relations -- and in the end that will better serve our countries and the entertainment community.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

Yes, 100%, in order to make them a better developer, you should 100% start a campaign to smear their reputation far and wide, I mean if they are out of business they cant ... wait... what was the goal?

 

Guys, this type of talk, along with the "Hey you guys, let's start legal action" is not conducive to repair the comms between users and the 3rd party. And in all honesty, it just needs to stop, please please keep letting us know your concerns on the Harrier if we are missing anything, and by all means, demand what you deserve, but also, let's try and think about the best way forward, threatening, insulting and hurling hate gets nobody nowhere.

 

Thanks.

[Mizzy]

Yes, totally unacceptable if the Harrier was being 'pumped & dumped', which it is not.

 

 

 

Well I guess that is the danger of jumping into a thread late and not reading everything, we have been working with RAZBAM all week on this, so please try not to get too riled up at this point, they are still very much working on the Harrier, and we are working on getting all your concerns addressed. Thanks.

 

Yes that is the problem, some people jumping on the 'hate wagon' before they have educated themselves with a few facts.

 

Mizzy

[viper2097]

Nineline, honestly, we have to repair nothing. Razbam should.

Take a look at Chickens post a few pages before and you know how Razbam thinks and want to make money. That combined with the fact that there is still, after one week, not a single official comment from Razbam here, while they seem to have plenty time to give arrogant postings on their Discord.

This says everything.

I'm looking forward to see, how this reputation killing situation for Razbam and also ED will get cleared up.

Edited September 13, 2020 by viper2097

[NineLine]

Nineline, honestly, we have to repair nothing. Razbam should.

Take a look at Chickens post a few pages before and you know how Razbam thinks and want to make money. That combined with the fact that there is still, after one week, not a single official comment from Razbam here, while they seem to have plenty time to give arrogant postings on their Discord.

This says everything.

I'm looking forward to see, how this reputation killing situation for Razbam and also ED will get cleared up.

 

I'm sorry, while RAZBAM does hold a much larger amount of the work here, there are a number of users that are already getting carried away as I described. Insulting, threatening, teasing, etc.

 

Let me ask you, as someone that has been a very strong critic of RAZBAM, your approach so far, how has it worked out for you? Do you feel like you have pushed them to be better over the past couple of years? Do you think doubling down on your anger towards them will help bridge communications?

 

If something isn't working, doubling down on it doesn't make things better. If I punch someone in the face, and they say its really hurting them, punching them harder won't make it stop hurting.

[NineLine]

@NineLine I can tell you for myself, with the way things appear, I'm getting closer to just walking away entirely from DCS. I'm going to watch and see how this all turns out, but I have more games than I can play, some news ones coming out this year, and I'll just move on.

 

That is entirely your choice, and we would be sad to see anyone go, all we can do now is our best to move things forward and get things back on track. Thanks.

[viper2097]

Let me ask you, as someone that has been a very strong critic of RAZBAM, your approach so far, how has it worked out for you? Do you feel like you have pushed them to be better over the past couple of years? Do you think doubling down on your anger towards them will help bridge communications?

 

You always say that I only critic Razbam. Have you also found my hundreths of posts which got ignored by them completely? Like all other posts and bug reports?

People don't get mad about anything in one day it is a long lasting process.

The more something is important for you, and the more arrogant and not caring the other one is, the faster and stronger you get mad.

 

You are right, a discussion is always better then being angry. But you can't have a discussion when the other is not listening, but instead gives arrogant words.

And at least, in my anger, I started this thread. And luckily it seems to change something.

 

And it is not too much, to ask for an official statement after ONE WEEK while they only post arrogant statements and lies on their own discord!

I want to know how they think they can fix this farce now, end especially until when.

Edited September 13, 2020 by viper2097

[statrekmike]

That is entirely your choice, and we would be sad to see anyone go, all we can do now is our best to move things forward and get things back on track. Thanks.

 

I have full faith that you and everyone else at ED are trying very hard to find some kind of solution to all of this. Even then, I am concerned that this will result in perhaps a six month long burst of meaningful progress and communication and then we will end up right back where we are now. This cycle isn't a new one and that is the part that I think some of us are really concerned about.

 

We know that you are in a tricky position because you are kinda stuck in the middle with all of this. To be bluntly honest, RAZBAM themselves should really be handling this and not you. The question I have is what happens if we end up in this situation again a handful of months from now? I know you can't speak for RAZBAM but maybe you could tell us where ED stands on this kind of thing. Is there a system in place that can help soften the blow of a worst case scenario?

 

Again. I really don't like being negative here and I am choosing my words pretty carefully so that I don't step on anyone's toes but this isn't the first time this has happened and while I hope it will be the last time, I also hope that if it isn't, ED has some kind of plan or system in place to get people what they bought and payed for. I mean, as far as RAZBAM is concerned, the Harrier is out of early access and while I am aware that they have stated that they will continue to update and support the module through "product sustainment", I am still getting pretty worried that I have been waiting a long time for a complete module that will never happen. Hopefully I am wrong but if I am not, I would like to know that ED is willing to step in and have a stance on things.

[NineLine]

You always say that I only critic Razbam. Have you also found my hundreths of posts which got ignored by them completely? Like all other posts and bug reports?

People don't get mad about anything in one day it is a long lasting process.

The more something is important for you, and the more arrogant and not caring the other one is, the faster and stronger you get mad.

 

You are right, a discussion is always better then being angry. But you can't have a discussion when the other is not listening, but instead gives arrogant words.

And at least, in my anger, I started this thread. And luckily it seems to change something.

 

And it is not too much, to ask for an official statement after ONE WEEK while they only post arrogant statements and lies on their own discord!

I want to know how they think they can fix this farce now, end especially until when.

 

 

I think you need to re-read what I said, I never said you only criticize, but when you do you are quite strong in that. I only said that while RAZBAM needs to make the biggest effort, everyone else could as well.

 

Please note that Decoy is still an official member of RAZBAM, and while I want Ron to spend more time here as well, its un fair to say no one from RAZBAM has fielded anything here.

[viper2097]

I said, there is still an official statement missing. That is something different then anyone from Razbam posting anything anywhere.

[skyblazer1]

Nineline,

 

Sarcasm isn't necessary, I take commercial contracts seriously, and I don't believe that a company that treats their customers the way Razbam does deserves to do business when national assets are in play. It's not a threat or a smear; I am encouraging people with connections to real world military VR training programs to let decision makers know how Razbam treats people -- I will be doing that with the guys I know who handle VR training and are always looking for options. I also believe that informed markets are necessary for healthy competition, and that spurs a better product for everyone. This isn't an extreme position, as I fear you interpret it to be by your response, but a position rooted in caring deeply about the best possible companies doing work for our training needs.

 

Cheers

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Hawkeye_UK]

I said, there is still an official statement missing. That is something different then anyone from Razbam posting anything anywhere.

 

+1 i think what is being meant is that nothing has been posted about from Razbam with any substance, and nothing from the management. We have a few words from the ex moderator on why he chose to leave, which in fairness if we are evaluating why we are here then he himself has to own and take responsibility as part of that process on failed communication. You can find a post i put out in June of this year alerting to the fact of growing resentment and that things had to improve. Nothing was done, infact you will note Decoy posted nothing at all throughout July. This is not being critical, its just stating the facts as they are.

 

Anyway history is done, it was good to see him post something however it didn't really provide anything just a statement blaming these forums for being toxic as a reason for him leaving. I do not see how this will engage the genuine concerns and zero customer support received.

 

Nineline and Bignewy as you can tell your efforts are always appreciated, but it really is for Razbam management to come to the support forum, as per the link in the sales page and discuss with the community. They however seem to be beyond that. It is becoming farcical.

 

How they cannot apologise for the comments they have made is beyond any logical reasoning.

[Fjordmonkey]

This was not meant as an insult. You seemed to be more and more obsessed about something. After all, it's Saturday night. You can't be serious about the money part. There are people for whom even the 35 $/Euro sale price has a certain value.

 

I can full well be serious about the money part, and I am. And I haven't stated that 35€/$ doesn't have value, I stated that to me spending that on a module that interests me, even if it doesn't turn out to be anything else than a giant pile of poo, is a risk I'm willing to take.

 

If 35€/$ is too much for other people, that's their business and not mine. Maybe then should reevaluate their spending-habits if it's that much of a burden financially. I know I've had to in the past, heh.

[bkthunder]

Well, Razbam are what they are and at this point I don't see any reason to expect anything from them, be it an official statement or else.

Honestly, whatever they say has no weight, actions speak louder than words (or silence in this case) and 3+ years have clearly shown what Razbam can and cannot do.

You can't possibly extract something from them if they just don't have the necessary skills to do it.

 

So let's start to talk about ED's role here:

 

• Has ED evaluated Razbam's ability to deliver to a DCS-level standard when enrolling them?
  
• Consequently (and provided this evaluation was done), why was a this developer given the go-ahead to develop and extremely complex aircraft such as the VTOL Harrier?
  
• Why, again, is ED trusting Razbam to deliver an even more complex aircraft, such as the F-15E (again, given their track record)?
  
• What is ED's position on selling a product on their official store page, which literally doesn't match the description?
  
• What is ED's plan to deliver what we paid for? (Yes, it's out of early access, so I am expecting exactly what I paid for at this point - a study level sim - and any EA excuse is invalid).
  

 

For example, Razbam is incapable of coding a working FPM (flight path marker / velocity vector) on their HUD, despite releasing a "bug fix" that didn't correct anything.

Is ED going to help razbam with the coding, in order to fix this basic bug on a fully released product sold on the official store, with the DCS logo on it, for $70?

 

 

These are the questions we should be asking at this point, and I hope ED will give an official statement.

[OPEC]

The wheels of the bus go round and round... I get the feeling that this is going nowhere.

 

And before @viper2097 comes telling me again that I'm not using the harrier... I do use the other modules and I wanted to purchase a lot of their upcoming modules so it is my business and problem as well.

 

But honestly: ED is in touch, and the only thing missing is a statement from razbam. And while i would like to see that as well, I go with nineline: threatening legal actions will not improve anything in terms of communication.

 

So... maybe we should all relax a little bit, have a little faith in ED and let them do their work. We will See where this is going...

 

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[Waxer]

Okay. Been following this thread for a while now, occasionally saying something myself. I feel that it is going round in circles now, so I will check out and leave you all to it.

 

In summary for me: I am very interested in the AV-8B module. During COVID lockdown I've been spent time in it, for the first time since buying it. Superficially it is good, but the more you go through the tutorials the more you discover quirks where things are not working. At first you think "What am I doing wrong" only to discover that actually you are running into a systems issue or bug that is not fixed. Is it unusable? No. But it is sometimes very frustrating. And at the moment it does NOT meet my expectations.

 

Rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, complain and give up on the module, I would rather seen Razbam work to bring the module up to the good quality standard set by other DCS modules. There is a lot of good work already done on the AV-8B, so it seems stupid to devalue all that good work by leaving things unfinished. I want it fixed. Eagle Dynamics getting involved to help Razbam achieve this sounds very constructive to me.

 

I think moving the AV-8B out of Early Access unfortunately sent a very wrong message to paying customers like me. I also thing that Razbam plowing on with one or two dozen other projects also sets an impression of a lack of focus. I get that the artwork done on various pipeline projects does not take the resource of the coders required to work on the Harrier, but regardless it sends the wrong message.

 

I am interested in the Lightning and Sea Harrier that Razbam has teased. If any other developed were working on these I would likely buy them during Early Access. However given that these are Razbam projects I will not be buying either until the AV-8B reaches a level of maturity significantly advanced from where it is now.

 

There are a number of very well argued and constructive comments and criticism on this thread. (Some of it was kinda angry, but I understand why. Hey - people are free to express themselves how they want. But my experience is that throwing toys around should be done only on exceptional situations if you want good outcomes). It should really give Razbam the information they need to polish the Night Attack Harrier to the level it needs to be. I wish them luck. If they ignore the community feedback I can't see this will end well for them. And it damages Eagle Dynamics reputation to have a developer underperforming so badly. I'd rather see fewer, very high quality modules on DCS rather than numerous quality compromised modules.

 

Checking out. I am off to fly my Viggen.

[NineLine]

Yes, lets also remember its the weekend, and again, I asked them to make sure it was a thoughtful response. Thanks.

[=DECOY=]

Here's the thing ! As you have seen a few users here always troll Razbam with hate and seem to attack everything they do.

 

Bkthunder and viper for example !

 

Then they expect razbam to interact with them , that's Not going to happen.

 

You don't spit in someone's face and expect to be invited for a coffee. They chose to stick to discord and Facebook due to this

 

Just saying !

Edited September 13, 2020 by =DECOY=

[johnv2pt0]

Here's the thing ! As you have seen a few users here always troll Razbam with hate and seem to attack everything they do.

 

Bkthunder and viper for example !

 

Then they expect razbam to interact with them , that's Not going to happen.

 

You don't spit in someone's face and expect to be invited for a coffee. They chose to stick to discord and Facebook due to this

 

Just saying !

 

[=DECOY=]

 

I'm no longer paid by razbam I'm freelance for a few devs now and can say what I like bud.

 

All im saying is this community has a select few who always stoke the fire with fuel. You only have to look at their profile pages to see the 100's of posts targeting razbam with nothing but aggression

Edited September 13, 2020 by =DECOY=