Forward visibility in the F14 SUCKS!!!!!

[eatthis]

off topic but why didnt they use ailerons? imagine the roll rate if if had both!

[Mars Exulte]

off topic but why didnt they use ailerons? imagine the roll rate if if had both!

 

When the wings are fully swept control authority switches to the all moving tail elevators because the wings are too far of an angle to be effective anymore. It has spoilers for low speed roll control on the wings.

 

''Imagine the roll rate'' what, you mean uncontrollable? More isn't necessarily better, especially in an aircraft that is not FBW. The F-14 is all mechanical and there's nothing there to stop you from doing something stupid. Also bear in mind most aircraft have roll LIMITS specifically to keep you from damaging the airframe or perturbing the air flow so much you are unable to regain control.

 

See ''Sabre Dance'' on 50s/60s aircraft for an example of how airflow can get screwed up so bad that you lose all control authority.

[VC]

imagine the roll rate if if had both!

 

The F-14s roll rate is already one of the best, especially at higher speeds, what more do you want?

 

The spoilers do the aileron job to increase roll rate when the wings are fully extended. Having spoilers and ailerons would be unnecessary and wasteful of weight and space for flaps. The F-14 control system is incredibly efficient and cleverly designed.

 

On top of that, you can use the rudders to increase your roll rate or pull off some crazy snap rolls that FBW planes can't. It's much more hands on than FBW planes that just give you max roll rate safely and without you having to put extra thought into it, but that's just the way it is.

[eatthis]

you get used to the visibilty very quickly, same goes for the speed gauge

[Xenovia]

I use head tracking, and I never saw it as a problem, just lean my body left or right to get a better view of things. I flew the Tomcat without head tracking before getting head tracking, and it was bad, it got to the point to where I would just outright avoid WVR engagements all together and stick to BVR, to make up for the fact that I couldn't really spot anything (DCS Issue), and my camera movements were very limited.

[Kirk66]

The F-14s roll rate is already one of the best, especially at higher speeds, what more do you want?

 

The spoilers do the aileron job to increase roll rate when the wings are fully extended. Having spoilers and ailerons would be unnecessary and wasteful of weight and space for flaps. The F-14 control system is incredibly efficient and cleverly designed.

 

On top of that, you can use the rudders to increase your roll rate or pull off some crazy snap rolls that FBW planes can't. It's much more hands on than FBW planes that just give you max roll rate safely and without you having to put extra thought into it, but that's just the way it is.

 

Well, the F-4 does just fine with both ailerons and spoilers; and at high angles of attack, you HAD to use the rudder to roll (cuz using the ailerons would result in a departure!)...and a somewhat "dense" forward view. As long as the final result works...

 

Vulture

[Spurts]

With the F-14 they had to reduce the landing speed as much as possible due to the higher weights (reducing total energy the arresting cable/hook has to absorb). For this they used effectively full span fowler flaps, something not used on fighters anywhere else, which cannot deflect up and as such cannot be used as flapperons. They do however provide much greater lift increase over plain flaps/drooped ailerons (i.e. Hornet). I have never been left wanting more for the roll rate of the Tomcat at any speed.

[Dav IRL]

Good thread with good information!

 

When I first came to DCS my first (and only plane) purchase so far was between the F14 and FA18. (Looking for a carrier based frame).

 

As much as I wanted the F14 - the youtube video's and view of the F14 forced me away to the cleaner FA18 and I didn't want to be stuck looking at a 2D screen with all the frame in the way.

 

I tried the F14 when the 'free to try' period was on earlier this year and found (with no VR) that indeed the forward view was restrictive and felt that I made the right choice with the FA18.

 

I read now, that for those with VR at least - this is much less of a problem. Pity that this can't be witnessed through youtube or screenshots for others to really know first - but that's real nice to know after reading this thread.

 

Had I have known that earlier (and had I invested in VR earlier) there's a better chance I may have gone F14. I wouldn't purchase now though - at least until I've had a change to try again in VR to confirm those differences and make sure that I'm happy with it, but it's encouraging to hear good feedback from VR users! Even then - I've got my carrier bird that I've invested a lot of time learning into - so would be more likely to move onto something else. Interesting to see how things could have likely been different if I had have purchased VR first.

 

Yes indeed, VR it is way less of an issue.

[draconus]

That was one of the two things I did not think about before getting into the Tomcat - the other being 2 crew ;) - and being fairly proficient with my head tracking it was a no issue from day one. The stick gets in the way far more - but it will probably be tweaked a bit some day. What helps my immersion, tracking and visibility is using real FoV.

 

I would argue we have a much clearer view compared to a Hornet's cluttered HUD ;)

 

Roll rate is good enough? Try low speed flat scrissors and I bet you'll miss you had more.

Edited September 21, 2020 by draconus

[eatthis]

That was one of the two things I did not think about before getting into the Tomcat - the other being 2 crew ;) - and being fairly proficient with my head tracking it was a no issue from day one. The stick gets in the way far more - but it will probably be tweaked a bit some day. What helps my immersion, tracking and visibility is using real FoV.

 

I would argue we have a much clearer view compared to a Hornet's cluttered HUD ;)

 

Roll rate is good enough? Try low speed flat scrissors and I bet you'll miss you had more.

 

low speed scissors isnt where you want to be in a tomcat tbf lol

[Spurts]

I've won those against Flankers, Fulcrums, and Eagles, you can get a LOT of roll using the rudders. I try to avoid it, but I can still roll if I get there.

[captain_dalan]

What helps my immersion, tracking and visibility is using real FoV.

 

What FoV angle do you usually use?

 

I've won those against Flankers, Fulcrums, and Eagles, you can get a LOT of roll using the rudders. I try to avoid it, but I can still roll if I get there.

 

Snap-rolling the thing!? :shocking:

[draconus]

What FoV angle do you usually use?

 

DCS shows around 60 - I go by feeling, not exactly with a ruler.

[captain_dalan]

DCS shows around 60 - I go by feeling, not exactly with a ruler.

Thanks. I did some major updates to my curves, clip and filters last night. So i might experiment with that angle.

I have my zoom function assigned to a pinky dial, so generally i'm all over the place (depending on situation), however, it's nice to have a default value to fall back to. :thumbup:

[draconus]

Thanks. I did some major updates to my curves, clip and filters last night. So i might experiment with that angle.

I have my zoom function assigned to a pinky dial, so generally i'm all over the place (depending on situation), however, it's nice to have a default value to fall back to. :thumbup:

 

My curves are linear and I don't use zoom at all fyi.

[Spurts]

Snap-rolling the thing!? :shocking:

The cross-control roll is very hit or miss, but I have been sub-150KIAS and 20+ units AoA and been able to reverse a level turn (for offensive or defensive reasons) in ~2sec with no lateral stick input at all.

 

 

Conversely, I have found myself sub-100KIAS in a level turn in a Hornet and unable to do anything but slip out of the sky with no ability to move the nose any direction except down. And, believe me I know, at least the Hornet can get sub-10 without actively trying to kill you. Been there a few times in the Tomcat and it is a bit hair raising. In the Hornet I just chuckle and unload.

[sublime]

I'll just leave these here, kek. keep in mind that in late vietnam there would ALSO be an apr-25/apr-26 in the small space to the right of the front seat radar display.

 

 

F4?

[sublime]

What was Grumman thinking when they designed the canopy/front windscreen? Clearly not close-in dog fighting as you constantly loose the enemy in the frames when in close - it is INCREDIBLY frustrating when you can't tell which way he is maneuvering.

 

It makes it so much harder (and seemingly unnecessarily so) to dogfight than the windscreen designs of contemporaries like the F15. I'm surprised they never changed that design over the 30 year service life as it would have made a huge difference - I guess the fact that they didn't reflects what they felt was the true mission? Damn shame, though...

 

Any tricks to try working around this? I'm hoping VR in the Reverb G2 might help to be able change head position to look around this mess mighty help keep sight a bit more? I've tried TrackIR but just find it very unnatural/disorienting so far - so not using it much.

 

1. the plane was basically built as a fleet defender and built specifically with the radar/phoenix package in mind.

Youd be an idiot to expect phoenix dogfights.

2. Fleet defense also means wide, flat spaces around the ship. Very easy to spot at long range with radar.

3. IRL you have better SA than in a game, and there was also another human to help you spot

4. As others have said its actually not as bad as you say at all. I dogfight best with the F14 and thats ironic considering some of my other planes. I have NOT had the same probs as you.

Yes it isnt a bubble canopy. Well it is, just not the front.

Ill also add as others said they needed the front part of the windscreen flat . There IS NOT a hud - youre looking at letters and shapes projected on that flat front windscrn.

[sublime]

My curves are linear and I don't use zoom at all fyi.

 

ok im curious.. why no zoom

[draconus]

ok im curious.. why no zoom

 

Simulation of Mk I eyeballs.

[captain_dalan]

My curves are linear and I don't use zoom at all fyi.

:thumbup:

Generally speaking, i use two linear sets, one for the fore 3-9 line and one for the aft.

As for the zoom, i usually widen the field of view to simulate peripheral vision, when doing AAR, formation or ACM, but narrow it down when scanning the horizon or aiming the gun. It depends really. I'm gonna try the 60 as a universal default though and see how that works with the new setup :thumbup:

 

The cross-control roll is very hit or miss, but I have been sub-150KIAS and 20+ units AoA and been able to reverse a level turn (for offensive or defensive reasons) in ~2sec with no lateral stick input at all.

 

 

Conversely, I have found myself sub-100KIAS in a level turn in a Hornet and unable to do anything but slip out of the sky with no ability to move the nose any direction except down. And, believe me I know, at least the Hornet can get sub-10 without actively trying to kill you. Been there a few times in the Tomcat and it is a bit hair raising. In the Hornet I just chuckle and unload.

 

Back in the day (and in another sim, much more forgiving at the controls) i had no issues pulling the stick full left-back and kicking right rudder. But now in DCS...... i'm just not there, not yet....

Edited September 22, 2020 by captain_dalan

[Jester2138]

The F-15 is not really an F-14 contemporary, it's a generation newer.

 

Both the F-15 and F-14 we have in DCS are representative of their respective mid '90s configurations. If anything, the F-15 is older as it is more early '90s while the F-14A with LANTIRN is more late '90s.

 

As for original designs, both airplanes had their first flight within two years of each other. They are very much contemporaries.

[RustBelt]

Simulation of Mk I eyeballs.

 

Except eyes don't work like DCS' camera system. And even if it did, your eyes still know they're looking at a fixed screen in front of your face.

[eatthis]

:thumbup:

Generally speaking, i use two linear sets, one for the fore 3-9 line and one for the aft.

As for the zoom, i usually widen the field of view to simulate peripheral vision, when doing AAR, formation or ACM, but narrow it down when scanning the horizon or aiming the gun. It depends really. I'm gonna try the 60 as a universal default though and see how that works with the new setup :thumbup:

 

 

 

Back in the day (and in another sim, much more forgiving at the controls) i had no issues pulling the stick full left-back and kicking right rudder. But now in DCS...... i'm just not there, not yet....

 

i havnt tried cross control snap rolls. whats the trick to it? and when is it doable/useful?

[draconus]

Except eyes don't work like DCS' camera system. And even if it did, your eyes still know they're looking at a fixed screen in front of your face.

That's what I found most immersive/real with available hardware... until I go VR. Changing fov/zoom to anything wider or narrower breaks it for me by messing with the scale of the world. I can live without peripheral vision for now.