Turn rate has tanked with new update

[maxsin72]

 

No, they do not. The title refers to the "normal" operations, and that's with the maneuvering flaps-slats ONLY! Now don't get me wrong, i do not approve of the way they handled the flap damage model for multiple reasons, but it has nothing to do with the topic and there is another thread, in the bugs section devoted to it.

 

I think bug section is the wrong section to talk about full flaps. I think that full flaps for F14 is very similar to overclock your CPU and GPU: There is some interesting headroom but you do at your own risk because "oveclock" works near the limit.

Could you explain what you do not approve of the way they handled the flap damage model? I'm curious :)

[TLTeo]

Lol not even remotely close. Much of modern hardware is designed for overclocking from the get go. Meanwhile, the Tomcat's flaps were never designed to be fully deployed at BFM speeds and G loads.

[IronMike]

 

Sorry but it's very difficult to believe at the image of Snodgrass you gave, because, if what you say is true, how is possible he scored this career:

US Navy highlights include:

One of the first two Navy Flight School Graduates to be selected for F-14 Tomcat training.

First non fleet experienced pilot to Carrier qualify in the F-14 Tomcat, both day and night.

12 operational Fighter Squadron/Wing tours.

Navy Fighter Weapons School Graduate and Instructor (TOPGUN).

Selected as the Navy’s Fighter Pilot of the Year in 1985.

Selected by Grumman Aerospace as “TOPCAT OF THE YEAR” (best F14 Pilot in 1986).

12 Operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours.

Command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm.

Led 34 combat missions in Desert Storm as overall Strike or Fighter Lead.

Wing Commander for all of the Navy’s F-14 Squadrons (14), totaling over 300 aircraft and 5,000 personal from 1994 – 1997.

Highest time F-14 Pilot, with 4,900 hours in the Tomcat.

7,800 hours in Fighters including 1,287 Carrier Arrested Landings.

Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot 1985 – 1997.

Military Decorations include:

Legion of Merit (3) for superior performance in positions of great responsibility.

Bronze Star (1) for Leadership and (1) for Valor during Desert Storm.

Meritorious Service Medal (2) for exceptional service in the position of Senior Leadership.

Air Medal (2) for Valor during Desert Storm, (1) Strike.

Navy Commendation Medal (3).

Various Service and Campaign Ribbons and Award.

Civilian Aviation and Air-show highlights include:

Volunteer instructor for the Kenya Wildlife Service Pilots in Kenya

bush 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006.

Over 12,500 total hours which includes 7,800 Navy Fighter hours

and 2,500 hours in Vintage Fighters (Warbirds).

Just exceeded over 1,000 hours in F-86 Sabre.

Surface Solo and Formation Aerobatic qualified in:

1. F-86 Sabre

2. Mig 15 Fagot

3. Mig 17 Fresco

4. L-39 Albatross

5. MS760 Paris Jet

6. P-51 Mustang

7. F4-U Corsair

8. P-40 Warhawk

9. T-6/SNJ Texan/Harvard

10. 8KCAB Super Decathlon

• Designated one of only nine civilian USAF Heritage Pilots.

• 25 Years of Air-show experience and over 1,000 low level performances in high performance aircraft.

• Single / Multi-Engine / Instrument Instructor (CFI).

• FAA designated Aerobatic Competency Evaluator and Designated Formation Check Pilot.

• 20 years providing Low Altitude (Air-show) Aerobatic Instruction.

 

 

https://swisspl.com/ambassadors/dale-snort-snodgrass/

 

And what about Paco Chierici who say the same things who say Snodgrass?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-f-5-aggressor

 

Who are the Pilots who say different? CW Lemoine Mover perhaps? He never flied on F14...

 

 

Maxsin, I hate to break it to you, but that video of Snodgrass reaks of sailor's yarn, to put it planely. Pulling circuit breakers he cannot reach and that don't actually do what he describes them to do? Just look how he closes his eyes as if remembering and the motion he does when gesturing how he pulled the circuit breakers. Then spawn in your Tomcat and look to your right rear in the front cockpit and tell me how many circuit breakers do you see there? The fact alone that he doesn't even mention his RIO, not to mention give him credit for his part in their success, and instead even protrays it as if the RIO's tasks were all carried out by himself, speaks volumes...

 

Furthermore: he was not very liked by ground crews, because he used to regularly overstress his aircraft which caused a lot of overtime and repairs. Very likely that if he pulled the flaps in that stunt, he returned a bird with jammed flaps and walked away like it was normal. (Not to mention what kind of an "achievement" it is to run out of fuel 45s after your first merge and what the outcome would have been, if the Hornet pilot would have insisted on a best out of 3...) Snodgrass once landed without gear and walked away like it was the most normal thing on earth... "No comment" was his comment to that. And the ground crew would have to spend days fixing his shennanigans. Others had to pay for it. That's not cool, that's selfish. And while sometimes pushing the edge can lead to new discoveries and breakthroughs and new knowledge gained, in this case, it didn't push anything that would directly benefit the Navy and their mission, except for the occasional photo-op. Pilots also knew without Snodgrass that the flaps could help them as a last resort. They all trained so they wouldn't need a last resort, btw. Hoser's famous shot on the F-15 did not involve any of these stunts. Clean, superior BFM is all what it was. No damage to the airframe, and when they broke over Nellis, they made a 500kn 6.5G break, because that was their quote "(...) salute and tribute to our fine VX-4 maintenance personnel." That's a real hero's trait: to first and foremost think of those who help him succeed.

 

Lastly, our SMEs are among some of the most respected pilots and RIOs in the Tomcat community, former commanders of the Aggressor squadron, BFM instructors and more. One of them brought up an entire generation of brilliant aviators. We do not disclose their names, because they do not want us to, because fame is not what they are after, but accurate portrayal of Tomcat history. All of them have thousands of hours in the Tomcat, and they did not dedicate their lives to showboating and chest pumping, but to mission readiness. And now they help to tell Tomcat history accurately. Some of these SMEs have an incredibly special memory when it comes to anything FM related to the Tomcat - which after 30 years is also very rare. Let us not even mention the willingness to literally spend thousands of hours with our Tomcat, which is utterly unheard of. The Tomcat community knows who our SMEs are, and they highly approve. That's all you need to know. And we all should be very, very grateful that we have them.

 

What Snodgrass is doing in this video is pleasing an audience that has little to no knowledge of what he is talking about, and that is totally fine, good for him. He is certainly embellishing his story and obviously ommitting any of the negative consequences this kind of stunt would have meant for everyone involved. And this is giving folks, like you, the wrong ideas. That's the complete opposite of what kind of trait you are looking for in a good SME (or historian for that matter)... In fact: it is by far the worst.

 

And to quote Paco, who has a great attention to detail and accuracy as well, and who btw keeps emphasizing that flaps above 2Gs was a big nono, directly from your article: "It was hugely successful, but the danger was that the flap torque tubes were not designed for this and could become stuck. Life is all about tradeoffs, and not losing to an F-15 is certainly worth the ire of the maintenance Master Chief."

 

This is what you can still do: pull the flaps and fly around with jammed flaps, because beating that F-15 was more important to you. That's exactly what Paco is saying here.

And then you can go land and repair, just like Paco had to, with the difference that the ground crew won't be yelling at you and it'll cost you but 3 minutes of your life.

 

Please accept now that the flaps won't change. Our SMEs have an approach dedicated to accuracy, like few others. And it is their input we go by, and not some youtube video that is lightyears away from the scientific and subject-focused approach from our SMEs.

 

 

Thank you for your kind understanding.

Edited November 21, 2020 by IronMike

[BMGZ06]

 

 

And are you used to speaking ill of people without reporting any facts?

Please, don't mention Jesus Christ that has nothing to do with it, thank you

 

 

 

 

 

You sound like you would great Snodgrass butt first. Your pathetic cheat move is gone dude, get over it.

[Sideburns]

 

Maxsin, I hate to break it to you, but that video of Snodgrass reaks of sailor's yarn........

 

Well said.

 

(sarcasm, please do not take seriously) But also clearly in the interests of realism and dealing people who abuse their airframes we must implement realistic repair times for DCS aircraft. This must also prohibit people from stopping and reloading DCS or even rebooting their computer for the duration of the realistic repair time. The whole time the screen has an animation of a loud, angry crew chief, and the ghosts of former famous aircraft designers should be seen crying in the sky a bit like the ghost scenes in Star Wars or Lion King. Can you implement this by the next patch HB and if not why not? (/sarcasm)

[IronMike]

Guys, please stay friendly to each other. Maxsin has a right to an opinion just like everyone else, and he promotes it out of the same passion that drives us all here. Please stay kind, the only deal we have on these forums is that we are all nice to each other. We all learn together. Even we got it wrong with the flaps at first. :-)

 

 

[maxsin72]

Guys, please stay friendly to each other. Maxsin has a right to an opinion just like everyone else, and he promotes it out of the same passion that drives us all here. Please stay kind, the only deal we have on these forums is that we are all nice to each other. We all learn together. Even we got it wrong with the flaps at first. :-)

 

 

Thank you IronMike, you understood what i mean. Also i'm interested to realism and i would like to understand deeply.

 

 

Maxsin, I hate to break it to you, but that video of Snodgrass reaks of sailor's yarn, to put it planely. Pulling circuit breakers he cannot reach and that don't actually do what he describes them to do? Just look how he closes his eyes as if remembering and the motion he does when gesturing how he pulled the circuit breakers. Then spawn in your Tomcat and look to your right rear in the front cockpit and tell me how many circuit breakers do you see there? The fact alone that he doesn't even mention his RIO, not to mention give him credit for his part in their success, and instead even protrays it as if the RIO's tasks were all carried out by himself, speaks volumes...

 

Furthermore: he was not very liked by ground crews, because he used to regularly overstress his aircraft which caused a lot of overtime and repairs. Very likely that if he pulled the flaps in that stunt, he returned a bird with jammed flaps and walked away like it was normal. (Not to mention what kind of an "achievement" it is to run out of fuel 45s after your first merge and what the outcome would have been, if the Hornet pilot would have insisted on a best out of 3...)

 

It' s difficult to me understand how, a pilot who made all that damagese to many aircraft, made also a very important and long career. It would be logical to think his superior punished him but instead they let him have a brilliant career

 

Snodgrass once landed without gear and walked away like it was the most normal thing on earth... "No comment" was his comment to that. And the ground crew would have to spend days fixing his shennanigans. Others had to pay for it.

 

You forgot to mention that this happened 10 years after he was retired and with a private plane and not during his duty in the US Navy

 

That's not cool, that's selfish. And while sometimes pushing the edge can lead to new discoveries and breakthroughs and new knowledge gained, in this case, it didn't push anything that would directly benefit the Navy and their mission, except for the occasional photo-op. Pilots also knew without Snodgrass that the flaps could help them as a last resort. They all trained so they wouldn't need a last resort, btw. Hoser's famous shot on the F-15 did not involve any of these stunts. Clean, superior BFM is all what it was. No damage to the airframe, and when they broke over Nellis, they made a 500kn 6.5G break, because that was their quote "(...) salute and tribute to our fine VX-4 maintenance personnel." That's a real hero's trait: to first and foremost think of those who help him succeed.

 

I've read somewhere Snort beated Hoser 2:1 in a 1vs1

 

Lastly, our SMEs are among some of the most respected pilots and RIOs in the Tomcat community, former commanders of the Aggressor squadron, BFM instructors and more. One of them brought up an entire generation of brilliant aviators. We do not disclose their names, because they do not want us to, because fame is not what they are after, but accurate portrayal of Tomcat history. All of them have thousands of hours in the Tomcat, and they did not dedicate their lives to showboating and chest pumping, but to mission readiness. And now they help to tell Tomcat history accurately. Some of these SMEs have an incredibly special memory when it comes to anything FM related to the Tomcat - which after 30 years is also very rare. Let us not even mention the willingness to literally spend thousands of hours with our Tomcat, which is utterly unheard of. The Tomcat community knows who our SMEs are, and they highly approve. That's all you need to know. And we all should be very, very grateful that we have them.

I understood, i agree and i'm also grateful to them

 

What Snodgrass is doing in this video is pleasing an audience that has little to no knowledge of what he is talking about, and that is totally fine, good for him. He is certainly embellishing his story and obviously ommitting any of the negative consequences this kind of stunt would have meant for everyone involved. And this is giving folks, like you, the wrong ideas. That's the complete opposite of what kind of trait you are looking for in a good SME (or historian for that matter)... In fact: it is by far the worst.

Ok

 

And to quote Paco, who has a great attention to detail and accuracy as well, and who btw keeps emphasizing that flaps above 2Gs was a big nono, directly from your article: "It was hugely successful, but the danger was that the flap torque tubes were not designed for this and could become stuck. Life is all about tradeoffs, and not losing to an F-15 is certainly worth the ire of the maintenance Master Chief."

 

This is what you can still do: pull the flaps and fly around with jammed flaps, because beating that F-15 was more important to you. That's exactly what Paco is saying here.

And then you can go land and repair, just like Paco had to, with the difference that the ground crew won't be yelling at you and it'll cost you but 3 minutes of your life.

Paco said "could" and not "will break for sure". He also said "then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting", if i try to move the lever it's enough to move it just a little bit and the flaps become immediatly jammed

 

Please accept now that the flaps won't change. Our SMEs have an approach dedicated to accuracy, like few others. And it is their input we go by, and not some youtube video that is lightyears away from the scientific and subject-focused approach from our SMEs.

 

 

Thank you for your kind understanding.

 

You can be sure i'll accept the flaps change when i'll be sure the actual setting match with real life.

I'm also really grateful and i appreciate you for the time you spent to answer me, this is also an answare to anybody have my same questions :)

[Breakshot]

The turn rate of F15 is too good in DCS for the graphs too.

 

Anyway F14 finds its place in the BFM and BVR arena hopefully after all the dust settles. Not as a push one button fighter but actually a very specialized platform (as it was in Rl).

 

Gj Heatblur.

 

PS: will F14A Mach 3 be hotfixed soon? Also what about the silent Pheonixes?

 

 

 

Отправлено с моего STV100-2 через Tapatalk

 

 

[Hummingbird]

The turn rate of F15 is too good in DCS for the graphs too.

 

No, it actually matches them very precisely.

 

Only at 0.3 mach does the DCS F-15 minutely overperform achieving 2.7 instead of 2.6 G @ SL under the 41,000 lbs 4x4 condition. ED's F-15 is very accurate performance wise, and so was HB's F-14 before this recent patch - but it's being fixed, so no worries.

[Alborz 1-1]

 

if i try to move the lever it's enough to move it just a little bit and the flaps become immediatly jammed

 

"The auxiliary

flaps, the innermost section, only have two positions, retracted and extended. They will extend fully when the FLAP

handle is at more than 5° extension" i think this the reason why even lowering the flap lever a little bit will cause it to jam. but at the same time i understand the frustration of not being able to deploy them in combat at all (even at low speeds). the current jamming mechanic seems to be very punishing but maybe it is real after all.

 

 

[IronMike]

 

It' s difficult to me understand how, a pilot who made all that damagese to many aircraft, made also a very important and long career. It would be logical to think his superior punished him but instead they let him have a brilliant career

 

He was the son of a Grumman executive, he was indeed a very good pilot and he was a poster boy for the Navy. Not hard to imagine how superiors would overlook his shennanigans. He was also presented to you, in parts by himself, as Mr. Tomcat, which is viewed very differently by the Tomcat community... But that is not my story to tell. Suffice to say, guys who were oriented in teaching others and making sure that the mission succeeds, were not too fond of guys who saw new pilots as competition and who mostly cared about their own fame and achievements. In a team, what counts most, is team spirit.

 

 

You forgot to mention that this happened 10 years after he was retired and with a private plane and not during his duty in the US Navy

 

I didn't, it just isn't relevant, it speaks about attitude.

 

 

I've read somewhere Snort beated Hoser 2:1 in a 1vs1

 

That might be so, but it is completely irrelevant. It is possible they had more than 1 skirmish and results differed from time to time. There were many Tomcat pilots who were just as good as Snodgrass. Only for different reasons, as mentioned above. Who were just as experienced, etc.. Snodgrass, again, was a great pilot. But he was not any more special than the plethora of excellent pilots you will find all across the board. The difference for me is that these pilots wouldn't just dump 10k lbs of fuel, thousands of dollars of taxpayer money, that does not belong to them, just to come out on top or for "cocktail and shrimp". Those are the kind of stories that impress us fans, but not so much professionals. I think that's quite understandable.

 

 

Paco said "could" and not "will break for sure". He also said "then incrementally lower the flaps beyond the normal maneuver setting", if i try to move the lever it's enough to move it just a little bit and the flaps become immediatly jammed

 

Paco also said that pulling flaps above 2 G was something that just wasn't a thing. You might do something like that occasionally, but in general: you avoid breaking stuff. Think about it, that is normal. Btw, no one said that the flaps will break above 250kts instantly. If you move them, while pulling G or overspeeding yes. But when they are still, and you take care in your maneuver, and then slow down, you will be able to stow them just fine again. Paco has contrary to Snodgrass a very humble attitude in his story telling, as he usually tells both sides and admits his own shortcomings, so others can learn from that. And also does it with a great portion of humor. What he is saying there is that if you thought it was worth to break your flaps, so you could beat an F15, then you would have to face the anger of the maintainers. Check out the flaps thread in the bug section, Creason explains how flap damage is modeled. It is not a stiff number where you will break em at XXY +1 knots. Or X.X + 0.1G. It's much more in tune now to Paco's comments also during the BFM stream with Moltar, where he thought that our forgiving flaps damage was unrealistic. Go check it out, I am sure you will find it online.

 

 

 

You can be sure i'll accept the flaps change when i'll be sure the actual setting match with real life.

I'm also really grateful and i appreciate you for the time you spent to answer me, this is also an answare to anybody have my same questions :)

 

Well, you will kinda have to accept them, whether you are sure or not. In the end you will have to take our and our SME's word for it. Paco was btw one of the first to criticize our flap damage model after we introduced it, by observation of course, since he did not fly our Tomcat yet. We wanted to organize a fly in with him, but then Corona happened. So fingers crossed that happens in the future, but again: detail oriented SME input will not change much, as they all pretty much agree. And while we all love Paco, we already have some of the best Tomcat pilots one could get, as mentioned earlier. In fact, if we did ask Snodgrass, so what happened when you pulled the flaps, it would not surprise me if he answered that yes, they jammed. Just because he ommits it, doesnt mean it didnt happen, or something else that caused increased maintenance.

 

It's not meant to punish you guys, or to cater to this or that kind of approach in the community. It is exactly meant to reflect flap damage much more realistically. If done right, they will still give you a massive advantage.

Edited November 21, 2020 by IronMike

[Sonoda Umi]

 

"normal" operations, and that's with the maneuvering flaps-slats ONLY!

+1

 

 

[maxsin72]

 

He was the son of a Grumman executive, he was indeed a very good pilot and he was a poster boy for the Navy. Not hard to imagine how superiors would overlook his shennanigans. He was also presented to you, in parts by himself, as Mr. Tomcat, which is viewed very differently by the Tomcat community... But that is not my story to tell. Suffice to say, guys who were oriented in teaching others and making sure that the mission succeeds, were not too fond of guys who saw new pilots as competition and who mostly cared about their own fame and achievements. In a team, what counts most, is team spirit.

 

 

 

 

I didn't, it just isn't relevant, it speaks about attitude.

 

 

 

 

That might be so, but it is completely irrelevant. It is possible they had more than 1 skirmish and results differed from time to time. There were many Tomcat pilots who were just as good as Snodgrass. Only for different reasons, as mentioned above. Who were just as experienced, etc.. Snodgrass, again, was a great pilot. But he was not any more special than the plethora of excellent pilots you will find all across the board. The difference for me is that these pilots wouldn't just dump 10k lbs of fuel, thousands of dollars of taxpayer money, that does not belong to them, just to come out on top or for "cocktail and shrimp". Those are the kind of stories that impress us fans, but not so much professionals. I think that's quite understandable.

 

 

 

 

Paco also said that pulling flaps above 2 G was something that just wasn't a thing. You might do something like that occasionally, but in general: you avoid breaking stuff. Think about it, that is normal. Btw, no one said that the flaps will break above 250kts instantly. If you move them, while pulling G or overspeeding yes. But when they are still, and you take care in your maneuver, and then slow down, you will be able to stow them just fine again. Paco has contrary to Snodgrass a very humble attitude in his story telling, as he usually tells both sides and admits his own shortcomings, so others can learn from that. And also does it with a great portion of humor. What he is saying there is that if you thought it was worth to break your flaps, so you could beat an F15, then you would have to face the anger of the maintainers. Check out the flaps thread in the bug section, Creason explains how flap damage is modeled. It is not a stiff number where you will break em at XXY +1 knots. Or X.X + 0.1G. It's much more in tune now to Paco's comments also during the BFM stream with Moltar, where he thought that our forgiving flaps damage was unrealistic. Go check it out, I am sure you will find it online.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, you will kinda have to accept them, whether you are sure or not. In the end you will have to take our and our SME's word for it. Paco was btw one of the first to criticize our flap damage model after we introduced it, by observation of course, since he did not fly our Tomcat yet. We wanted to organize a fly in with him, but then Corona happened. So fingers crossed that happens in the future, but again: detail oriented SME input will not change much, as they all pretty much agree. And while we all love Paco, we already have some of the best Tomcat pilots one could get, as mentioned earlier. In fact, if we did ask Snodgrass, so what happened when you pulled the flaps, it would not surprise me if he answered that yes, they jammed. Just because he ommits it, doesnt mean it didnt happen, or something else that caused increased maintenance.

 

It's not meant to punish you guys, or to cater to this or that kind of approach in the community. It is exactly meant to reflect flap damage much more realistically. If done right, they will still give you a massive advantage.

 

Thank you IronMike, you gave me/us many interesting informations :)

I really hope Paco can give his important feedback very soon!!!

[FWind]

 

FWIW, the “whisper number” was plus 30% at .9 IMN for the TF 30’s. More like a total in the 44,000 pound range. The 34,000 static thrust was correct. It was in the J79 range static.

 

I never saw any empirical data for the ram increase, but plus 56,000 seems very high given the actual sustained climb angles attainable in the A. Do you have anything that you can put your hands on? What kind of simulator are you referencing?

 

[IronMike]

 

Thank you IronMike, you gave me/us many interesting informations :)

I really hope Paco can give his important feedback very soon!!!

 

My pleasure. And I hope so, too. Paco is a great pilot and a great guy. But believe me, his input isn't any more important than the one we are already getting. I am not saying this to diminuish Paco, but because we cannot hold the candle high enough and often enough to appreciate what kind of exceptional contribution we are getting from the most exceptional SMEs one could wish for. Let's never forget that. :-)

[maxsin72]

 

My pleasure. And I hope so, too. Paco is a great pilot and a great guy. But believe me, his input isn't any more important than the one we are already getting. I am not saying this to diminuish Paco, but because we cannot hold the candle high enough and often enough to appreciate what kind of exceptional contribution we are getting from the most exceptional SMEs one could wish for. Let's never forget that. :-)

 

I'm sure the contribution the SMEsone are giving is really exceptional and i thank them. On the other hand i find Paco's experience really interesting because it seems he had several opportunities to experiment full flaps vs F15 :)

[Hummingbird]

@IronMike Any rough idea when we might be getting the performance fix?

[HAAUK]

as long as Victory doesn't complain and HB says their SMES checked it out and thumbs up it... I am fine....

 

except that one time HB over nerfed the GE'S

[Breakshot]

 

and so was HB's F-14 before this recent patch - but it's being fixed, so no worries.

 

Ermm no I think it just got fixed in the patch. Time to enjoy a better FM.

 

 

[Alborz 1-1]

 

Ermm no I think it just got fixed in the patch. Time to enjoy a better FM.

 

 

maybe read the previous comments before commenting my dude? devs acknowledged the issue and said it is fixed internally. so we need to wait for the next patch/hotfix

[HAAUK]

 

I'm sure the contribution the SMEsone are giving is really exceptional and i thank them. On the other hand i find Paco's experience really interesting because it seems he had several opportunities to experiment full flaps vs F15 :)

 

just for you maxsin, i will give you a nice cut of pie as a fellow tomcat fan.

 

I have flown with many ex-fighter pilot Captains that did training with and against tomcats... i leave you with 4 very memorable quote which changed the way i ACM with my Cat from a Captain who was a Former F-5 Fighter Weapons Instructor and another ex f-16 squadron C.O who flew against F-14A's and B's... they had hud shots with Guns solutions to prove it.

 

"The Tomcat cannot turn for f**k"

"After the merge, if I see him (The Tomcat) turn around for me, it is a question of how many circles I need to Fly before Guns, if he runs or climbs, this guy knows what he is doing"

"The GE engines didn't really make much of a difference, they did turn tighter thou"

"The Thing about the Tomcat is, they will kill you from far before you even see them with the flying telephone pole (phoenix)"

 

and the last special quote

 

"end of the day, it is not the plane, it is the pilot still..." and "The Super Tomcats looked damn good"

 

quotes 1 to 3 were mentioned for the F-15C and E as well...

 

I am not sure about you, I used to think the Tomcat was the best fighter there is... any crap pilot can hop in and win dogfights and what not... truth is, if you know your aerodynamics and aircraft design, the Tomcat and Eagle were not designed to be super-dogfighters... sure they can hold their own, but you need to know what is myth and what is truth and physics... the tomcat will not turn super tight with the flaps or without, it is just not designed to to that..

 

i can gurantee you, any aircraft made from metal skin and frames... you will wrap shit at 12G and above.... a hard wing design like the F-15 suffers Permenant deformation at 11Gs+ let alone a complex swing wing design like the Tomcat.

 

Just let it go... Snodgrass's stories are nice to hear , but they aint completely true.

 

I am an ex-aicraft designer turned commerical pilot, not an SME, but I am joining everyone else telling you that you have to let go of the fantasy and start loving the Tomcat for what it is... A Massive Turkey that can throw massive telephone poles at other birds while being meh to ok at dogfighting.

[maxsin72]

 

just for you maxsin, i will give you a nice cut of pie as a fellow tomcat fan.

 

I have flown with many ex-fighter pilot Captains that did training with and against tomcats... i leave you with 4 very memorable quote which changed the way i ACM with my Cat from a Captain who was a Former F-5 Fighter Weapons Instructor and another ex f-16 squadron C.O who flew against F-14A's and B's... they had hud shots with Guns solutions to prove it.

 

"The Tomcat cannot turn for f**k"

"After the merge, if I see him (The Tomcat) turn around for me, it is a question of how many circles I need to Fly before Guns, if he runs or climbs, this guy knows what he is doing"

"The GE engines didn't really make much of a difference, they did turn tighter thou"

"The Thing about the Tomcat is, they will kill you from far before you even see them with the flying telephone pole (phoenix)"

 

and the last special quote

 

"end of the day, it is not the plane, it is the pilot still..." and "The Super Tomcats looked damn good"

 

quotes 1 to 3 were mentioned for the F-15C and E as well...

 

I am not sure about you, I used to think the Tomcat was the best fighter there is... any crap pilot can hop in and win dogfights and what not... truth is, if you know your aerodynamics and aircraft design, the Tomcat and Eagle were not designed to be super-dogfighters... sure they can hold their own, but you need to know what is myth and what is truth and physics... the tomcat will not turn super tight with the flaps or without, it is just not designed to to that..

 

i can gurantee you, any aircraft made from metal skin and frames... you will wrap shit at 12G and above.... a hard wing design like the F-15 suffers Permenant deformation at 11Gs+ let alone a complex swing wing design like the Tomcat.

 

Just let it go... Snodgrass's stories are nice to hear , but they aint completely true.

 

I am an ex-aicraft designer turned commerical pilot, not an SME, but I am joining everyone else telling you that you have to let go of the fantasy and start loving the Tomcat for what it is... A Massive Turkey that can throw massive telephone poles at other birds while being meh to ok at dogfighting.

 

Interesting, thank you :)

[Skysurfer]

 

 

[...] A Massive Turkey that can throw massive telephone poles at other birds while being meh to ok at dogfighting.

 

Well, the performance charts with Ps-0 lines and max TRT's at given alts are all public for both the A and B and it can hold its own with the 15, 18 and 16. Of course it always comes down the the pilot and the fact that the more modern FBW aircraft are easier to control and maneuver at those regimes. But ideally yes, having this powerful radar, the Phoenix and the speed you shouldn't ever merge or go past the MAR. It is also fairly silly to compare modern 4th gen and up aircraft using guns-only BFM - for instance a Flanker or Hornet with JHMCS etc. would eat a Tomcat alive at or past the merge. Obviously the JHMCS and 9X weren't really a common thing up until the 14D was around, the Archer however was. All the stories from aircrews are usually pretty subjective and I think most of them will agree that the better pilot that day will usually come out on top (obviously even if it means cheating or doing silly, frowned upon stuff).

 

Sure, in DCS most people want the merge, use guns and heaters because it's the most thrilling and fun but from a purely "how do I always have the advantage and can fly back home" kind of metality you stay at range, lob missiles and treat your AIM-9's and Sparrow's like they almost exclusively exist for an "oh shit" kind of scenario when someone jumps you.

 

 

[eatthis]

 

 

 

Please, don't mention Jesus Christ that has nothing to do with it, thank you

 

 

 

 

 

hes bloody good at hide and seek il give him that!

[IronMike]

except that one time HB over nerfed the GE'S

 

Eeeeh... we never nerfed anything. That is principally not a word in our vocabulary. We might have bugged something, or gotten something wrong, but we'd rather shoot ourselves than sacrifice realism for balance. Whether that adds a plus or a negative on the Tomcat's side is of zero concern for us.