Hornet turn performance

[Rmnsvn]

I like BFM and usually fly hornet for this purpose but recently I started adding some viper. 
here what I observed: Hornet, about 7000 lbs of fuel, no pylons, sea level. I’m able to sustain 7.5g at around 380-390 kts. 
Viper can take about 6 g at best at this speed without loosing energy. 
is this expected behavior? I’d expect vipers tr to be better due to better tw ratio. 
Apologies if the question is stupid. Just curious. 

[silverdevil]

there have been numerous discussions about the realism and what plane can do what better than another. the 18 and 16 are definitely two differently reacting planes. i think it really boils down to the pilot exploiting the advantages of the plane and exploiting the disadvantages of the adversary.

[TGW]

True in the above point.  But your airspeed @ max-G will vary according to weight (wing-loading) of your aircraft at any given point in time (heavier=faster).  This in turn (pun-intended) will also vary your 'turn diameter', which is another factor to be monitoring while performing BFM with an opponent. 

8 hours ago, Rmnsvn said:

I like BFM and usually fly hornet for this purpose but recently I started adding some viper. 
here what I observed: Hornet, about 7000 lbs of fuel, no pylons, sea level. I’m able to sustain 7.5g at around 380-390 kts. 
Viper can take about 6 g at best at this speed without loosing energy. 
is this expected behavior? I’d expect vipers tr to be better due to better tw ratio. 
Apologies if the question is stupid. Just curious. 

Yes, this is expected, as each aircraft has a differing lift-to-total drag (induced + parasitic) profile!

Edited December 10, 2020 by TGW

[Gonzzo]

Yea . They are 2 different planes. The hornet is  made for low speed fights. You can still maneuver it at 90 knots with rudder inputs. So if you get a viper or any other fighters  slow they are yours. If you have some missiles you can usually be the first to get your nose around a get the first shot.  Vice versa the viper has power so if it can stay fast it can stay above and out of the hornet firing solution or extent and reset the fight.   Not an expert but it’s been my experience. 

[kengou]

Viper prefers faster speeds. 380 - 390 knots may be the right speed for the Hornet but not for the Viper, since Viper has higher wing loading, less drag, etc.

[Spartan111sqn]

13 hours ago, Rmnsvn said:

I like BFM and usually fly hornet for this purpose but recently I started adding some viper. 
here what I observed: Hornet, about 7000 lbs of fuel, no pylons, sea level. I’m able to sustain 7.5g at around 380-390 kts. 
Viper can take about 6 g at best at this speed without loosing energy. 
is this expected behavior? I’d expect vipers tr to be better due to better tw ratio. 
Apologies if the question is stupid. Just curious. 

I think the Viper FM still under construction, at such regime it should be able to sustain more Gs than hornet.

[Skysurfer]

TLDR is, the Viper is underperforming by quite a lot and the Hornet is overperforming, even for the -402 motors. 

[Joni]

2 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

TLDR is, the Viper is underperforming by quite a lot and the Hornet is overperforming, even for the -402 motors. 

 

Maybe aerodinamically, cause the engines are very underpowered right now. Acceleration is way lower than it should be.

 

My opinion though.

[Brass2-1]

43 minutes ago, Joni said:

 

Maybe aerodinamically, cause the engines are very underpowered right now. Acceleration is way lower than it should be.

 

My opinion though.

The feedback from several actual Viper and Hornet pilots that I’ve seen and read is that both lose energy quicker than they believe the real jets do. That said, the wild card is that in the game we can pull G’s that a real pilot wouldn’t-bleeding energy faster without realizing it. It’s a tough call. 

[Joni]

54 minutes ago, Brass2-1 said:

The feedback from several actual Viper and Hornet pilots that I’ve seen and read is that both lose energy quicker than they believe the real jets do. That said, the wild card is that in the game we can pull G’s that a real pilot wouldn’t-bleeding energy faster without realizing it. It’s a tough call. 

 

Very well put. Yes. 

 

Every DCS module feels like underpowered in terms of engine performance and energy management. The A-10C is a good example, I felt it was stalling unrealistically the first day I bought it just like I felt the hornet's nose behavior was wrong the first day I took it on the carrier. It's just one of those things you just feel when flying enough in your life.

 

Now with the A-10CII version they finally corrected it.

 

I'm afraid that when ED finally modify the hornet's FM we will have gotten used to a completely different thing and it'll be tough to learn again. 

[Spartan111sqn]

10 hours ago, Joni said:

 

Very well put. Yes. 

 

Every DCS module feels like underpowered in terms of engine performance and energy management. The A-10C is a good example, I felt it was stalling unrealistically the first day I bought it just like I felt the hornet's nose behavior was wrong the first day I took it on the carrier. It's just one of those things you just feel when flying enough in your life.

 

Now with the A-10CII version they finally corrected it.

 

I'm afraid that when ED finally modify the hornet's FM we will have gotten used to a completely different thing and it'll be tough to learn again. 

the key aspect is that they attach to the real thing as much as possible...Viper and Hornet...but Viper FM is way far from RL

Edited December 11, 2020 by Spartan111sqn

[G.J.S]

On 12/9/2020 at 11:45 PM, silverdevil said:

. . . i think it really boils down to the pilot exploiting the advantages of the plane and exploiting the disadvantages of the adversary.

ACM/BFM description in a nutshell.

[wilbur81]

The real Lot 20 Hornet is a better turning fighter below 400 kts than the Viper. 400-430 kts, the Viper owns most 4th gen jets. To the OP, was your Viper also completely clean of pylons and low on gas when you made your test flight?

[Spartan111sqn]

17 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

The real Lot 20 Hornet is a better turning fighter below 400 kts than the Viper. 400-430 kts, the Viper owns most 4th gen jets. To the OP, was your Viper also completely clean of pylons and low on gas when you made your test flight?

For Hornet I would say below 300kts performs better than Viper, Viper corner speed is 330-430kts

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Spartan111sqn

[wilbur81]

Interesting; I didn't think the Viper's corner was that slow (330kts)... Corner speeds usually fall into a much narrower range than 100 kts don't they?

Edited December 11, 2020 by wilbur81

[Skysurfer]

If people actually knew how to read EM charts they'd know.

 

Regardless, I heard from numerous SME's that the DCS Hornet, even with the 402's, is pretty overpowered, gains energy back even quicker than it should. The Viper on the other hand is underpowered, limited by the whack DCS G-model and bleeds energy/speed too quickly with AOA. The Viper, when clean, should technically outrate everything we have in the game by a good amount.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Skysurfer

[Joni]

2 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

If people actually knew how to read EM charts they'd know.

 

Regardless, I heard from numerous SME's that the DCS Hornet, even with the 402's, is pretty overpowered, gains energy back even quicker than it should. The Viper on the other hand is underpowered, limited by the whack DCS G-model and bleeds energy/speed too quickly with AOA. The Viper, when clean, should technically outrate everything we have in the game by a good amount.

 

 

I hardly think this is true IMHO. The engines makes the plane accelerate like a piston aircraft (I'm exaggerating of course). How can it gain back energy quicker than IRL?

 

Sorry but I can't feel it right.

[Skysurfer]

3 minutes ago, Joni said:

 

I hardly think this is true IMHO. The engines makes the plane accelerate like a piston aircraft (I'm exaggerating of course). How can it gain back energy quicker than IRL?

 

Sorry but I can't feel it right.

 

Then you must be flying it wrong and yanking the stick or whatever, I don't know. I'd rather listen to SME's with thousands of hours in the real jet and who have tried the DCS Hornet than someone who hasn't flown any high perf. jet and is making claims on his "beliefs" on a forum. Not trying to be rude here or anything but you should be open to the possibility that reality is in fact very different from the game and value SME input. I'm just giving you feedback on what is known and what even the EM charts back up. The Hornet is by no means a rate fighter like it sort of is in DCS.

[Joni]

40 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Then you must be flying it wrong and yanking the stick or whatever, I don't know. I'd rather listen to SME's with thousands of hours in the real jet and who have tried the DCS Hornet than someone who hasn't flown any high perf. jet and is making claims on his "beliefs" on a forum. Not trying to be rude here or anything but you should be open to the possibility that reality is in fact very different from the game and value SME input. I'm just giving you feedback on what is known and what even the EM charts back up. The Hornet is by no means a rate fighter like it sort of is in DCS.

 

None offense taken, don't worry 

 

I wasn't claiming anything, I just gave my opinion.

 

I didn't talk to an SME and I am not aware of what one said to you, but based on thousands of flight hours I can give at least an informed opinion, which I stand.

 

I am not saying the Hornet FM is right, in fact I think it is very far from the real thing, but I do not agree with the engine statements you posted. No hard feelings though, just an open exchange of opinions 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Joni

[Skysurfer]

1 hour ago, Joni said:

 

None offense taken, don't worry 

 

I wasn't claiming anything, I just gave my opinion.

 

I didn't talk to an SME and I am not aware of what one said to you, but based on thousands of flight hours I can give at least an informed opinion, which I stand.

 

I am not saying the Hornet FM is right, in fact I think it is very far from the real thing, but I do not agree with the engine statements you posted. No hard feelings though, just an open exchange of opinions 

 

 

 

All good man!  And I agree with what you said. The engine "statement" - well, you either believe me, look at the -402 motor thrust graphs (which are fairly hard to find btw.) or DM me and I see if I can get you in touch with some SME's.  

[Joni]

1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

 

All good man!  And I agree with what you said. The engine "statement" - well, you either believe me, look at the -402 motor thrust graphs (which are fairly hard to find btw.) or DM me and I see if I can get you in touch with some SME's.  

 

 Thanks! I'll get in touch with you guys!

[Snappy]

Given for how long the issues with the hornet better performing than it should be exist, especially in acceleration and sustained turnrate,  I wonder if ED has any real interest in bringing it down to realistic levels or whether it subtly suits them to have their flagship perform that good..
Certainly doesn't seem that way like its going to be amended.  Or maybe they re taking their time..

Regards

Snappy

Edited December 11, 2020 by Snappy

[wilbur81]

4 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

I heard from numerous SME's that the DCS Hornet, even with the 402's, is pretty overpowered, gains energy back even quicker than it should. The Viper on the other hand is underpowered

 

Man, as an avid DCS Hornet driver who owns the Viper as well, I hope you're dead-wrong!! The Hornet in DCS already feels underpowered like a pig in comparison to the DCS Viper. Fingers crossed that ED has gotten the Hornet engines as right as is reasonable given this genre of simulation. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by wilbur81

[GGTharos]

I suspect that a lot of people are comparing clean aircraft, and I further suspect that you would pretty much never be in danger of engaging a clean hornet in any sort of fight.  It would at least have the pylons mounted, which are like drag chutes for this little plane.

 

However, in DCS, everyone makes the aircraft clean, so perhaps that's where the complaint is coming from.

[Rmnsvn]

6 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

The real Lot 20 Hornet is a better turning fighter below 400 kts than the Viper. 400-430 kts, the Viper owns most 4th gen jets. To the OP, was your Viper also completely clean of pylons and low on gas when you made your test flight?

Yep, Viper was also clean and approx 80% of fuel. I'm actually able to at least match the hornet at 430-440 IAS but then the GLOC kicks in and here we go: either i soften the backpressure and gain speed or I go out of burner and loose that energy. I understand the G is there but i remember reading Viper pilots are trained to sustain 9g to like 12 seconds without even color loss. Here you completely black out after about 7 sec (feels like this, didn't measure it)

3 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

I suspect that a lot of people are comparing clean aircraft, and I further suspect that you would pretty much never be in danger of engaging a clean hornet in any sort of fight.  It would at least have the pylons mounted, which are like drag chutes for this little plane.

 

However, in DCS, everyone makes the aircraft clean, so perhaps that's where the complaint is coming from.

Yep but Viper was also clean