AI Avro Lancaster

[heylookabigmac]

The Avro Lancaster would be awesome to have in the game. Having bomber streams come in at night would open up a whole other mission type for axis players and not to mention would compliment the incoming 'Mossie' quite well. 

[Land0]

Agreed!

[DD_Fenrir]

1. It was on the roadmap for the WW2 Assets Pack, whether still is... another question. It was used in daylight ops over Normandy, hence it's inclusion but that aside WW2 night-fighting is just not a thing right now.

 

2. "Having bomber streams come in at night would open up a whole other mission type for axis players" 

Er, not really. Wild Sau tactics maybe prototypical but that's a very limiting, not to mention difficult and low chance of success (and ergo unsatisfying) mission for the essentially day fighter axis plane set. If there were Axis night fighter types in the roadmap that could leverage ED's radar technology, then yeah, I'd be with you, but that's a very niche area of interest in the already niche high fidelity study combat flight sim environment, and I just doubt we'll see it happen.

 

3. "and not to mention would compliment the incoming 'Mossie' quite well." 

Again, our Mossie is a day fighter-bomber/night intruder; ED have announced no plans for a Night Fighter variant equipped with radar. Ergo I don't see it complimenting a Lancaster in night ops at all. Given that there'd be no similarly equipped Luftwaffe types even if an NF variant was available, it would be kind of moot.

 

So, share your enthusiasm for a Lancaster, sure, but don't think your arguments currently stand up to close scrutiny.

 

 

[Kiwi_Viper]

im workin on it lol i had one one from the cfs days it only needs minor work for dcs as AI just got to figure out animations and stuff.

[Hawkeye60]

 

[Kiwi_Viper]

thanks Hawkeye, that lanc is really bad tho, it climbs like a jet lol plus the model is obviously very old and has a lot of things that arent close the right shapes.

mine will be AI only at first but once i get my head round the bits for dcs ill try an make it flyable later, i want to get a heap of planes in as AI that need to be there for warbird era.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Kiwi_Viper

[Northstar98]

Yes, of course they should, it's an absolute no brainer to do an Avro Lancaster B.1

[xvii-Dietrich]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:33 AM, heylookabigmac said:

{...} Having bomber streams come in at night would open up a whole other mission type for axis players {...}

 

How would an Avro Lancaster be any different from the already-existing B-17G?

 

We already had the option for night-time intercept missions for ages, and they do not seem to be particularly popular. An AI Lancaster offers nothing new here.

 

[Northstar98]

15 minutes ago, xvii-Dietrich said:

How would an Avro Lancaster be any different from the already-existing B-17G?

 

We already had the option for night-time intercept missions for ages, and they do not seem to be particularly popular. An AI Lancaster offers nothing new here.

 

Neither does a P-47 over the P-51... Or a Hind over an Apache, or an F-5E-3 over an F/A-18C, or an SA-2 over an SA-11, or an Arleigh-Burke over a Ticonderoga, I could go on...

 

Why should the B-17G be the only WWII heavy bomber in DCS? Especially when every WWII map so far has the UK on it...

 

I agree about the night-time stuff, but how are you going to manage night time intercept missions in the first place without a night fighter? No wonder they're not popular - it's like saying that ASW isn't popular in DCS; of course it isn't, we have no ASW capable platforms and ASW isn't really a thing.

 

Plus even the Lancaster B.1 can drop a pretty big bomb - the 4000Ib MC 'Cookie' let alone the 12,000Ib MC 'Tallboy' and 22,000Ib MC 'Grand Slam' (though only on the B.1 Special).

Edited February 12, 2021 by Northstar98

[DD_Fenrir]

22 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Neither does a P-47 over the P-51...

 

Why should the B-17G be the only heavy bomber in DCS? Especially when every WWII map so far has the UK on it...

 

Whether you like it or not, DCS WW2 is simulation of daytime aerial combat from that era; there is little to no infrastructure to support the simulation of night bomber/interception operations. That's strike one against the Lancaster.

 

Whilst the Lancaster did see limited daytime use there are many, many more aircraft that use in daytime operations in the ~1944 period in the ETO that would be infinitely more useful if added to the DCS assets:

• Hawker Typhoon
• Douglas C-47
• Focke-Wulf Fw 190F
• Messerschmitt Bf 109G6/14
• North American P-51B Mustang
• Republic P-47D-22/23 Thunderbolt
• Lockheed P-38J
• North American B-25C/J Mitchell
• Martin B-26B/C Marauder
• Consolidated B-24J Liberator
• Bristol Beaufighter TF Mk.X

All of these were used almost exclusively in daylight operations in large or significant numbers, much more so than the Lancaster.

 

There's Strike 2.

 

Would a Lancaster be nice? Sure. But if some sense of historical relevance in regard to the almost exclusive daytime operations focus of DCS WW2 is used in the development roadmap of WW2 Assets to be added, then rationally all of these aircraft take priority.

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Northstar98]

10 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

 

Whether you like it or not, DCS WW2 is simulation of daytime aerial combat from that era; there is little to no infrastructure to support the simulation of night bomber/interception operations. That's strike one against the Lancaster.

 

Whilst the Lancaster did see limited daytime use there are many, many more aircraft that use in daytime operations in the ~1944 period in the ETO that would be infinitely more useful if added to the DCS assets:

• Hawker Typhoon
• Douglas C-47
• Focke-Wulf Fw 190F
• Messerschmitt Bf 109G6/14
• North American P-51B Mustang
• Republic P-47D-22/23 Thunderbolt
• Lockheed P-38J
• North American B-25C/J Mitchell
• Martin B-26B/C Marauder
• Consolidated B-24J Liberator
• Bristol Beaufighter TF Mk.X

All of these were used almost exclusively in daylight operations in large or significant numbers, much more so than the Lancaster.

 

There's Strike 2.

 

Would a Lancaster be nice? Sure. But if some sense of historical relevance in regard to the almost exclusive daytime operations focus of DCS WW2 is used in the development roadmap of WW2 Assets to be added, then rationally all of these aircraft take priority.

 

Was never the point I was arguing against, but okay...

[DD_Fenrir]

I see your Chicken -Egg point ref: night ops, and it is valid. I'd love to see a Mosquito NF.XII/XIII, a Lancaster B Mk.I and a Ju-88C-6/G-1/G-6 as an introduction to night ops, but you really need all three concurrently to make it worthwhile.

 

And would it be worthwhile? Would the investment on EDs part generate enough sales to cover the costs? As pointed out before the WW2 night fighting idiom is a niche calling within our already niche community - no previous sim managed to garner the community hype to see development through, despite some passing interest. 

 

And all the development time on these takes away from making the daytime operations more cohesive and reflective of the prototypical experience; I mean, the Hawker Typhoon was the RAFs default Ground Attack aircraft of the period, used in hundreds over France & Belgium - yet no sign of one in DCS, not even a WiP 3D model.

 

Too often we've seen  a promising doorway crack open in DCS then ED run off on a tangent to something else shiny and new and leave us with the embryo of a simulated theatre but never flesh it out; the Korean Era aircraft are a case in point; for 6 years we've had the F-86 and MiG-15 but there's been no prototypical map, and certainly no '50s era assets to flash out scenarios with, and there are many of us clamouring for these.

 

But it doesn't have to be that way, and with the WW2 asset pack roadmap and maps, we are starting to see some cohesive cogent vision in providing a fleshed out historical theatre (if with some bumps) to fit(ish) with the flyable planes we have.

 

So, I personally think ED would be much better served spending their development time cementing the WW2 daylight operations environment first. Get that complete (or as complete as possible), then look at the possibilities that the WW2 night-fighting domain could bring.

 

 

[Mogster]

Really we need another couple of quality developers on board, making WW2 flyables AI and assetts. Development of DCS as a WW2 environment is glacially slow currently. There’s a clutch of 3rd party developers now but other than the Octopus Gs lovely I-16 nothing WW2 era has appeared from them, it’s all modern stuff. The F4U from Magnitude has a forum now but when will we see an actual release?It’s been in development for literally years, but even then we have no Pacific maps (I know it was used by the RN in the ETO)  and very few naval assetts. DCS WW2 first became a thing in 2014...

 

A2A seemed to be sniffing around 18 months ago but nothing has transpired. I keep hoping they’ll burst onto the scene with a completed P38, P40 or somesuch... 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Mogster

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

I see your Chicken -Egg point ref: night ops, and it is valid. I'd love to see a Mosquito NF.XII/XIII, a Lancaster B Mk.I and a Ju-88C-6/G-1/G-6 as an introduction to night ops, but you really need all three concurrently to make it worthwhile.

 

Well, not really. My main point was "it wouldn't offer anything over the B-17G" which I don't think is a valid enough argument to warrant excluding an aircraft, especially when there are plenty of other examples of assets with similar or less capability being present among others.

 

I agree with the whole WW2 at night isn't present - it absolutely isn't, and I agree with needing something more comprehensive to make it worthwhile - it just wasn't the argument I was arguing against.

 

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

And would it be worthwhile? Would the investment on EDs part generate enough sales to cover the costs? As pointed out before the WW2 night fighting idiom is a niche calling within our already niche community - no previous sim managed to garner the community hype to see development through, despite some passing interest.

 

I kinda agree, DCS has a depth problem as it is (which you get to) and making the river wider and wider without adding much depth. I see it as one of my main issues with DCS.  

 

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

And all the development time on these takes away from making the daytime operations more cohesive and reflective of the prototypical experience; I mean, the Hawker Typhoon was the RAFs default Ground Attack aircraft of the period, used in hundreds over France & Belgium - yet no sign of one in DCS, not even a WiP 3D model.

 

Agreed.

 

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Too often we've seen  a promising doorway crack open in DCS then ED run off on a tangent to something else shiny and new and leave us with the embryo of a simulated theatre but never flesh it out; the Korean Era aircraft are a case in point; for 6 years we've had the F-86 and MiG-15 but there's been no prototypical map, and certainly no '50s era assets to flash out scenarios with, and there are many of us clamouring for these.

 

I could not agree more, though at least WW2 is the most coherent era in DCS, though the bar isn't exactly high. I won't get into it here (I could go on for ages), as this thread is a better place for it.

 

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

But it doesn't have to be that way, and with the WW2 asset pack roadmap and maps, we are starting to see some cohesive cogent vision in providing a fleshed out historical theatre (if with some bumps) to fit(ish) with the flyable planes we have.

 

Absolutely.

 

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

So, I personally think ED would be much better served spending their development time cementing the WW2 daylight operations environment first. Get that complete (or as complete as possible), then look at the possibilities that the WW2 night-fighting domain could bring.

 

Fair enough.

[Talisman_VR]

Lancaster was used for day time raids, so great, lets have it.  There is a market out there for the Lancaster for sure.  3 nice photographs below:

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

 

[rkk01]

No. Not even as AI.

 

There are a dozen or more aircraft required as Western Europe AI before the Lanc.

 

Typhoon

Tempest 

Spitfire V

Beaufighter

P38

B24

C47

109G

190F

Me262

Ju52

V1

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love a flyable, full fidelity Lancaster in DCS.  By age 10 or 12 I’d been talked through the start up and take off routines numerous times by a former Bomber Command pilot, 

Edited April 1, 2021 by rkk01