Quicker way to use helmet mounted cueing system with radar gun sight in dogfights

[darkman222]

I was wondering if there is a quicker way to use the helmet mounted cueing system with the radar gun sight.

The necessary steps for me are at the moment:

-Activate helmet mounted sight (keyboard 5)

-Target Lock (keyboard Enter)

-Activate Cannon ( keyboard C)

 

But as soon as I lose lock, I have to go through these steps again. After a lost lock, the Mig stays in gun mode, with some kind of boresight radar mode covering the area around the HUD. But as soon as I activate the helmet mounted cueing system, it switches weapons to short range missiles i guess, wich does not let me fire the gun, unless I activate guns (C) again. That can be quite confusing.

Can't it just stay in guns mode all the time?

[Mateo]

Vertical Scan Mode (keyboard 3) is recommended for dogfights with cannon. If you would rather to improve your skill with Helmet system, try to assign lock button and cannon activation button to your throttle/stick buttons and so you could use it as HOTAS instead of keyboard.

[Cmptohocah]

I sometimes switch to backup "net" reticle mode. Can't be bothered with all those steps while the target is maneuvering in front of me.

[BlackPixxel]

You don't have to leave canon mode to lock the target again.

 

Just look at the target and press the lock button. Just because there is no helmet sight circle does not mean that it is not active.

 

Same with vertical scan and canon mode. You can re-lock the target without having to go out of canon mode.

[dundun92]

4 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

You don't have to leave canon mode to lock the target again.

 

Just look at the target and press the lock button. Just because there is no helmet sight circle does not mean that it is not active.

 

Same with vertical scan and canon mode. You can re-lock the target without having to go out of canon mode.

Interesting, I legit never knew you could do that.

[probad]

your gun cant shoot offbore so why do you need to lock it hobs??? you think you're gonna snap a front crossing shot?

sounds like you need to solve the bfm problem first.

[dundun92]

Just now, probad said:

your gun cant shoot offbore so why do you need to lock it hobs??? you think you're gonna snap a front crossing shot?

sounds like you need to solve the bfm problem first.

or maybe you just want the lock ahead of time and not at the last second when hes already in the HUD?

[probad]

he wont keep having to relock at the edge of gimbal range if he was actually anywhere close to making a guns shot

[darkman222]

I want to lock the target outside of the HUD to give the gun sight time to compute a firing solution. But as I am talking now, I am not really sure if it needs extra time to precompute a guns solution like in the F16.

I need to try it out tonight on the dogfight server. If it does not need time ahead to calculate does not make too much sense to lock the target outside the HUD before the gun shot is actually possible.

[Top Jockey]

On 3/17/2021 at 10:04 PM, darkman222 said:

I was wondering if there is a quicker way to use the helmet mounted cueing system with the radar gun sight.

The necessary steps for me are at the moment:

-Activate helmet mounted sight (keyboard 5)

-Target Lock (keyboard Enter)

-Activate Cannon ( keyboard C)

 

But as soon as I lose lock, I have to go through these steps again. After a lost lock, the Mig stays in gun mode, with some kind of boresight radar mode covering the area around the HUD. But as soon as I activate the helmet mounted cueing system, it switches weapons to short range missiles i guess, wich does not let me fire the gun, unless I activate guns (C) again. That can be quite confusing.

Can't it just stay in guns mode all the time?

 

As far as I know, in jet fighter aircraft the concept of HMS / JHMCS, always was more of a specialized mode for employment of guided missiles, sensors, etc.

 

Since a jet fighter's gun can not be used in an high off-boresight mode (contrary to an AA missile), it wouldn't be of great utility to acquire its pretended target with the helmet system in such an high off-boresight fashion.

 

As being, the most indicated ways of target acquisition for gun employment in the MiG-29 are with the Radar or EOS via HUD symbology, tipicaly with Vertical scanning or Bore, close combat modes.

 

Eitherway, everytime the lock is lost with guns selected, the gunsight predictor symbol switches to gun funel.

(But you can press lock button again to try re-acquire the target, if it's roughly inside vertical or bore mode gimbals.)

 

Regarding the F-16, currently I only fly it a few times, but didn't yet notice that much amount of time for it to provide a guns solution.

 

8 hours ago, probad said:

your gun cant shoot offbore so why do you need to lock it hobs??? you think you're gonna snap a front crossing shot?

sounds like you need to solve the bfm problem first.

 

This ^

[Mars Exulte]

22 hours ago, probad said:

you think you're gonna snap a front crossing shot?

  You mean a deflection shot? Cause that's a thing, even with jets, and yeah, snapshots are a thing, too. I wouldn't bother with the radar gunsight, though, I'd just use the backup sight, as imo, the funnel sight sucks.

[darkman222]

Thanks for the advice guys. But somehow the dogfight handling of the locks in the Mig does not work quite smoothly for me.

 

I can go to boresight or vertical mode then activate guns to lock a bandit up. Thats cool for a front pass. But up to the point I get into a scissors situation I always have to wait until the bandit crosses the hud to lock him for a gun shot. If I wanted to stay in guns mode all the time. Because what I think is, that if I locked someone up first with the HMD, lose lock, the Mig automatically reverts to boresight locking mode.

 

I feel very unconfortable to wait everytime for him to get him in my hud. It is much quicker if I lock him up with he HMD before I have pulled him in my HUD. Then go back to guns when the guns solution is already finished and ready to fire

 

I was hoping for a mode where the Mig just remembers the last used weapon. I think activating the HMD always selects missiles automatically, no matter if you had guns selected before, which is kind of annoying in a guns fight.

Edited April 2, 2021 by darkman222

[Cmptohocah]

22 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Thanks for the advice guys. But somehow the dogfight handling of the locks in the Mig does not work quite smoothly for me.

 

I can go to boresight or vertical mode then activate guns to lock a bandit up. Thats cool for a front pass. But up to the point I get into a scissors situation I always have to wait until the bandit crosses the hud to lock him for a gun shot. If I wanted to stay in guns mode all the time. Because what I think is, that if I locked someone up first with the HMD, lose lock, the Mig automatically reverts to boresight locking mode.

 

I feel very unconfortable to wait everytime for him to get him in my hud. It is much quicker if I lock him up with he HMD before I have pulled him in my HUD. Then go back to guns when the guns solution is already finished and ready to fire

 

I was hoping for a mode where the Mig just remembers the last used weapon. I think activating the HMD always selects missiles automatically, no matter if you had guns selected before, which is kind of annoying in a guns fight.

 

For a fast pace dog fight like the scissors maneuver, I would recommend switching to a "fixed net" reticle. Sure you will loose the fancy target tracking, but at least you will have a definite idea where your bullets will go.

 

One trick in case your HUD is showing the funnel: with no extra Gs being applied, the center of your cannon is just bellow that number "20" found in the upper-middle part of the HUD.

[darkman222]

Okay that makes sense.

One more question. In case I decide to use the long process of using the HMD getting a first lock, but unfortunately losing lock while having the bandit somewhere jinking in front of me, needing to re-akquire lock now.

When I just press the lock button over and over, I manage to get a lock again, but where is the area the radar is scanning now? There is no indication like the boresight circle or vertical scan bars. Which mode does the radar revert to and use after a lost lock coming from HMD mode?

[Top Jockey]

31 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Okay that makes sense.

One more question. In case I decide to use the long process of using the HMD getting a first lock, but unfortunately losing lock while having the bandit somewhere jinking in front of me, needing to re-akquire lock now.

When I just press the lock button over and over, I manage to get a lock again, but where is the area the radar is scanning now? There is no indication like the boresight circle or vertical scan bars. Which mode does the radar revert to and use after a lost lock coming from HMD mode?

 

... I believe it's a matter of experimenting several lock presses at a time, with the bandit / target positioned in different places around the HUD and look at its general position when lock is achieved.

[darkman222]

Yes. I think I have found a good workflow for me now.

Apparently the radar remembers the last used mode when switching to guns, but does just not show the symbology any more.

Maybe the HMD is still working but without the circle symbol its very hard to use.

So what I do before a guns fight: Go to vertical scan mode and activate guns.

When I lose lock, even when I dont see the symbology but know approximately where I will regain lock a again and start pressing the lock button.

Had a couple of dogfights tonight, worked pretty well.

Edited April 4, 2021 by darkman222

[Top Jockey]

26 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Yes. I think I have found a good workflow for me now.

Apparently the radar remembers the last used mode when switching to guns, but does just not show the symbology any more.

Maybe the HMD is still working but without the circle symbol its very hard to use.

So what I do before a guns fight: Go to vertical scan mode and activate guns.

When I lose lock, even when I dont see the symbology but know approximately where I will regain lock a again and start pressing the lock button.

Had a couple of dogfights tonight, worked pretty well.

 

 

That's how it works for me also, when I find it not realy necessary to change from guns to missiles only to confirm the current search mode / pattern.

 

Eitherway, it's very easy to assign some button in your HOTAS to guns / missile mode switch.

[darkman222]

Yes. I already had the buttons assigned, but I quite wanted to understand what the radar was doing under the hood. But now I think I have a good feeling about whats happening.

I think its one of the expectations you get from playing western fighters all the time. That the HUD or something just has to tell you exactly what to do, and what mode it is in.

 

[Top Jockey]

18 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Yes. I already had the buttons assigned, but I quite wanted to understand what the radar was doing under the hood. But now I think I have a good feeling about whats happening.

I think its one of the expectations you get from playing western fighters all the time. That the HUD or something just has to tell you exactly what to do, and what mode it is in.

 

 

This ^

 

Also happened with me, I guess one tends to get 'formated' strongly by first impressions indeed... as the very firsts sims I played in the early '90s featured them that way.

And so "western style" always was the way things make more sense to me - jets like the F-16 do have in my view, more complete HUD info.

 

The MiG-29A and Su-27 variant we have in DCS, do have a more archaic HUD symbology and logic - but I still highly appreciate their own stile though.

For instance, even the F-14A's archaic HUD are of much more interest for me than the D variant (as this is much more similar with F-15s and F-16s already).

[darkman222]

I think the habit of locking up a bandit off bore sight before the gun shots comes from flying the F16. The F16 will give you the exact closure speed and distance to the bandit in the HMD, so you can prevent an overshoot.

Well the Mig, as far as I know, just has the arrow symbol with the scale on the left of the HUD, which is basically just a visualisation of the distance to the bandit.

But as long as this is just in the HUD and not in the HMD too, I wont look at it too often.

So having a lock on the bandit before he is in the HUD and ready for a guns shot is more or less pointless as suggested to me in the discussion before.

Edited April 5, 2021 by darkman222