Mi-24 Facing the reality.

[BIGNEWY]

I suggest you enjoy what we have currently, I am, low level attacks at tree top level require a lot of skill, if you want to take on a SAM or AAA go for it, it is possible with the right tactics. 

 

As and when the AI improve and the dynamics campaign is ready you can see what work has been done and how it will work. 

 

thanks 

[Zeagle]

I have flown on many servers and most are airquake. I prefer to fly in a more realistic manner. So I create the missions for our server. I try to create plausible scenarios. You won't see the enemy just hanging out and picking off players over an airfield. And helicopters have a role to play in all scenarios. I am sure there are others out there who do the same. 

 

Personally I am looking forward to the Mi-24 and will include it from day one into the scenario.

 

As far as the airquake issue goes, I had to put a password on our server because of those types. They get frustrated at flying 90km to the battle and can't be bothered to read the briefing, join the Discord, or use voice comms. They want hot starts and carriers 10 miles from the action. I can see how that turns people off from multiplayer when they get on a server like that.

 

The dynamic campaign sounds ok. But I think a hand-crafted campaign is going to be more interesting really. So instead of complaining about the what the dynamic campaign may or may not do, learn the ME and start making missions. It takes a lot to create something playable and plausible at the same time.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Zeagle

[Silver_Dragon]

Many has change from 2017. All has paralel projets. Dinamic campaing has builded by RTS team, Advanced AI by AI team working side to side.

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I suggest you enjoy what we have currently, I am,

 

I am, so your suggestion about otherwise is misplaced. As getting Mi-24P is not going to change anything else we have now.

It is that in the future we just can have far more enjoyment.

 

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

low level attacks at tree top level require a lot of skill, if you want to take on a SAM or AAA go for it, it is possible with the right tactics. 

 

At this moment it doesn't take so much skill at all as it should. That is the problem as it is not about right tactics but simply abusing the currently limited game mechanics and utilizing a proper tactics just gets you more likely killed than succeed (opposite), hence "Facing the Reality" what to expect years old mechanics in ground for those who have not flown at low+slow previously.

 

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

As and when the AI improve and the dynamics campaign is ready you can see what work has been done and how it will work. 

 

Again, not about asking schedule. But about connection between Dynamic Campaign <-> Improved AI <-> Damage Modeling <-> Combined Arms, as in the interviews it has been mentioned by Wags that Combined Arms was put on the backburner to speed up other elements, so question is that are those later dropping more likely as a one major patches or in series. Again, not about schedule but more about can we see example improved AI spotting separately from a new damage modeling, and it separately from CA etc?

 

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Many has change from 2017. All has paralel projets. Dinamic campaing has builded by RTS team, Advanced AI by AI team working side to side.

 

Yes they have. Why I collected few different interviews to show how things has evolved and got more impressive. ED has taken ground part far more seriously like 7-8 years ago and got to situation where they need to improve so many things that their dreams are only limit now. What multiple people (Wags, Katia, Nick, Simon etc) talk about ED goals in those is very impressive and reveals how challenging and growing projects those are. There is so many great changes to come in the future for helicopter and ground units players. 

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

At this moment it doesn't take so much skill at all as it should. That is the problem as it is not about right tactics but simply abusing the currently limited game mechanics and utilizing a proper tactics just gets you more likely killed than succeed (opposite), hence "Facing the Reality" what to expect years old mechanics in ground for those who have not flown at low+slow previously.

 

 

 

you have your opinion, that is fine, I dont share it. 

 

 

Quote

Again, not about asking schedule. But about connection between Dynamic Campaign <-> Improved AI <-> Damage Modeling <-> Combined Arms, as in the interviews it has been mentioned by Wags that Combined Arms was put on the backburner to speed up other elements, so question is that are those later dropping more likely as a one major patches or in series. Again, not about schedule but more about can we see example improved AI spotting separately from a new damage modeling, and it separately from CA etc?

 

Dynamic Campaign - in progress

Improved AI - always being worked on, new features will be introduced in time some related to dynamic campaign

Damage Modelling - in progress, WWII first, later ground units other aircraft, it will take time

Combined Arms - plans for the future will be shared at the right time. 

 

While they all effect each other in a way the work is not dependant on each other, they each have their own devs. 

 

Now please keep the discussion on the topic, we are discussing the Mi-24

 

thanks

 

 

[Fri13]

10 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Now please keep the discussion on the topic, we are discussing the Mi-24

 

Yes, we are in the exactly half of the topic:

 

"In DCS world what real purpose will the hind serve? The reason I ask this question is due to the fact that in DCS world combat is mainly oriented around the ground and air vehicles. What was the last time you really tried to support the infantry in DCS? Yes, we may have 4 9M120 against the ground targets, but that's about it. 

In contrast, the upcoming Apache will have much more "space" in DCS with up to 16 hellfires on board and various sensors such as AG radar, Datalink, and multiple self-defense capabilities."

 

(half is basically about AH-64 vs Mi-24, but I concentrate to Mi-24 and its orientation for ground attack and how it fits to support ground units like infantry in DCS:

Supporting Ground Units -> Ground Units capabilities and limitations relative to Mi-24 -> How it looks in future related to current (soon) Mi-24 weaponry and tactics = Why to buy it today (instead tomorrow when changes are done) -> How will it change in the future.

 

 

 

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Yes, we are in the exactly half of the topic:

 

"In DCS world what real purpose will the hind serve? The reason I ask this question is due to the fact that in DCS world combat is mainly oriented around the ground and air vehicles. What was the last time you really tried to support the infantry in DCS? Yes, we may have 4 9M120 against the ground targets, but that's about it. 

In contrast, the upcoming Apache will have much more "space" in DCS with up to 16 hellfires on board and various sensors such as AG radar, Datalink, and multiple self-defense capabilities."

 

(half is basically about AH-64 vs Mi-24, but I concentrate to Mi-24 and its orientation for ground attack and how it fits to support ground units like infantry in DCS:

Supporting Ground Units -> Ground Units capabilities and limitations relative to Mi-24 -> How it looks in future related to current (soon) Mi-24 weaponry and tactics = Why to buy it today (instead tomorrow when changes are done) -> How will it change in the future.

 

 

 

 

I dont want to turn this into a back and forth between us but I have no problems having fun supporting troops in DCS, we move them around, we assist in fire fights. Some great missions out there where you can enjoy this kind of game play. Many mission makers will tailor missions suitable for for the HIND and other helicopters, even servers dedicated to helicopter work.

If you are only thinking of buying the Mi-24 for the capability on the battlefield maybe it isn't right for you, it is a personal choice, just try to enjoy it the way you want to play. 

 

thanks 

 

 

[Fri13]

Just now, BIGNEWY said:

 

I dont want to turn this into a back and forth between us but I have no problems having fun supporting troops in DCS, we move them around, we assist in fire fights. Some great missions out there where you can enjoy this kind of game play. Many mission makers will tailor missions suitable for for the HIND and other helicopters, even servers dedicated to helicopter work.

If you are only thinking of buying the Mi-24 for the capability on the battlefield maybe it isn't right for you, it is a personal choice, just try to enjoy it the way you want to play. 

 

I don't have either problems supporting ground troops.

And again I am not thinking about buying Mi-24, as I already did. And I did not buy it by thinking its capability in battlefield....

 

What I quoted was the OP created topic of the Mi-24 fitting to the DCS World. He is the one who is requesting discussion about how it fits to DCS world, how it can support ground units, is it only good for using ATGM against some ground targets etc.

 

Topics can be discussed without doing it only from own opinion point of view.

I can defend someone's opinions even when I don't share them.

I can counter someone's opinions even when I share them. 

In discussions it is not about person, it is about the topic.

 

 

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, Fri13 said:

 

I don't have either problems supporting ground troops.

And again I am not thinking about buying Mi-24, as I already did. And I did not buy it by thinking its capability in battlefield....

 

What I quoted was the OP created topic of the Mi-24 fitting to the DCS World. He is the one who is requesting discussion about how it fits to DCS world, how it can support ground units, is it only good for using ATGM against some ground targets etc.

 

Topics can be discussed without doing it only from own opinion point of view.

I can defend someone's opinions even when I don't share them.

I can counter someone's opinions even when I share them. 

In discussions it is not about person, it is about the topic.

 

 

 

thanks, enjoy the discussion. 

[Schmidtfire]

Better AI, better simulated ground war, Dynamic Campaigns etc... ongoing discussions since I first joined the forums.
The Mi-24P is just another highly detailed helicopter module. Nothing more, nothing less. Would it be more fun to use with
improved DCS World? Yes, but that goes for just about every avalible module. One thing that can actually be a bit of a gamechanger
for helicopter pilots is the Mi-24P "Petrovich" AI. Spotting of threats and ground targets might give the gameplay a bit of new dimension. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Schmidtfire

[Fri13]

2 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

Better AI, better simulated ground war, Dynamic Campaigns etc... ongoing discussions since I first joined the forums.
The Mi-24P is just another highly detailed helicopter module. Nothing more, nothing less. Would it be more fun to use with
improved DCS World? Yes, but that goes for just about every avalible module.

 

Why those are major game changes for everyone as You say.

 

2 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

One thing that can actually be a bit of a gamechanger
for helicopter pilots is the Mi-24P "Petrovich" AI. Spotting of threats and ground targets might give the gameplay a bit of new dimension. 

 

That might be the major future new element for the helicopter flying to get the AI work nicer than now. Like it is not so fun in UH-1H when suddenly your commander starts spraying miniguns all over the places as he did spot a infantry soldier at maximum distance somewhere front between the buildings, while you are focused to support own ground units while just overflying them. 

 

We are again in the interesting phases where major changes are coming with the new and improve features. Like if this "Petrovitch" turns to be great later on when it is developed futher, I totally want to see it in the other helicopters like KA-50 wingmen. As it is as much about Mi-24 Co-Op with AI as flying with AI wingmen and so on all other helicopters.

So for some period it can be the first major difference maker for Single Player elements how Mi-24 changes it to better by having a more aware AI with you. 

 

Is there information about is the "Petrovitch" just for your helicopter AI or is it as well used for your wingmen?

[Schmidtfire]

Here is from a Q & A about the Mi-24P / AI:

: He’ll turn on everything needed for weapons without communicating this via audio, at most showing a checkmark to the pilot via an interface. The weapons need to be activated by the gunner, otherwise the pilot can’t fire them.

[...]

Q: How will gunner spotting and engagement work?
A: Spotting is finding targets. The operator will say something like “commander, tally target 10 o’clock, range 3 to 3.5km”. Engagement is when the virtual operator looks through the periscope and sees a target in its field of vision, places a mark then says “commander, ready to employ weapons”. The commander sees this moving mark repeated on the gunsight, together with a fixed net. This symbolises launch authorisation – the missiles cannot be fired by the gunner until the pilot aligns the net boresighted with the helicopter with the moving one represented by the target designation. We’re trying to make it so the operator has the same difficulties a real person would have on manually holding the sight on target.

[...]

A: The Mi-24 AI will allow you to play as gunner or pilot, and you’ll be able to tell the pilot to make turns in certain directions, change altitude, speed, make attack runs and so on.

[...]

Q: If the player is on the gunner seat, will the AI fly with a simple flight model?
A: Why do that? The AI is a great pilot, no need for simple flight models. The one difficulty we’re having is for the AI to make a perfect landing in certain exotic conditions, but we already have it flying well in all nominal flight regimes.

[...]

Q: Would it be possible for the co-pilot to automatically load waypoints and call them out based on the flight plan on the mission editor?
A: Yes, a crew needs to help the commander. I’ll write this down. That’s also a task for the operator in the Mi-24, we’re doing that for him and want to do the same for the Mi-8.

Q: Can the Mi-24 operator give range to target?
A: Well, yes. We’re doing this realistically – there’s a certain error associated with visually guessing the range. An AI of higher skill will make better guesses than a lower one. There’s no way to gauge distance except for a rangefinder graphic on the periscope.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 3/27/2021 at 10:54 AM, BioZ said:

Greetings everyone, so I have a question...

 

In DCS world what real purpose will the hind serve?

 

To have fun.

[Zeagle]

The purpose of the Mi-24 is....as I see it...(and in my best Schwarzenegger voice) ..."to crush your enemies ,see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women" (Conan)

Edited April 13, 2021 by Zeagle

[molevitch]

2 hours ago, Zeagle said:

The purpose of the Mi-24 is....as I see it...(and in my best Schwarzenegger voice) ..."to crush your enemies ,see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women" (Conan)

 

And hopefully to be able to say....”I’ll be bäck.” (Terminator).

Edited April 13, 2021 by molevitch

[Zeagle]

 

[Dr.SquirrelBoy12]

On 3/27/2021 at 11:32 AM, Apok said:

First of all you can have 8 missiles not 4. Hind is not Apache and Apache is not Hind.

Your problem with Hind seems like complaining whats the point of Sabre when there is F15. Module is depiction of weapon system from certain time period. Its not there to fill hole in weapon roster or level the playing field. This is not War thunder.

I think this is a misrepresentation and I think most people in this thread (through what I have read so far) don't understand what OPs point is. He is not arguing the Hind is inferior because it doesn't have as many weapons or is not as modern, like would be the case with the Sabre vs the Eagle. He is saying the Mi-24 isn't able to perform one of it's primary roles in DCS since DCS has mundane infantry gameplay, to put it lightly. About all you can do that I have seen is drop off Stinger/Igla teams or squads to "capture airfields".

 

Infantry is just a joke to fight against right now. I am pretty sure this is why we are getting the P variant with a fixed cannon instead of a turret machine gun. I've already pre-ordered the Mi-24 but I am also concerned that the chopper just won't have a place in the sim because of how bad infantry gameplay is. Choppers make way more sense in games like ARMA or even Battlefield (lmao) since there they can support the boots on the ground more realistically (since it's just not very possible in DCS). Frankly, you'd need ground gameplay along the lines of ARMA for a lot of choppers outside of those primarily meant to take out vehicles (The Apache was literally intended to do this in the Fulda Gap, same of the Bo-105) to make sense.

 

I would love to have a Blackhawk in DCS, but I honestly don't think I would get it unless the ground game improved vastly. Rising Storm 2 Vietnam Huey gameplay is honestly way more fun than the DCS Huey, but it is also really dull since it's just arcade controls to fly. I know it has been said before but DCS is an amazing and unrivaled sim, but it just doesn't have super compelling gameplay in many areas. 

 

/rant

 

Also btw War Thunder checks neither box, it doesn't have any infantry gameplay (that I am aware of) and it is super arcadey. 

[Zeagle]

The gameplay is determined by the mission creators. You have to strike a balance between playable and realistic. It's not easy. 

 

And as far as I can tell, the Hind's primary role was as an attack helicopter. The troop carrying function was off-loaded to aircraft like the Mi-8 early on in it's life.  They designed it to carry troops as a way to get the army to buy it. After it was in service, that ability was used, but not the way it was advertised.  You have to remember that it was one of the first true attack helicopters.

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Zeagle

[S. Low]

This thread is getting sillier and sillier. Helos don’t serve a function in dcs? I primarily fly helos. If you remove helos from dcs i will basically stop caring about dcs. And I just don’t care very much at all about multiplayer. Even if I did care I’d just join a group that had a focus on helicopters and appropriate mission design for helos. 
 

For example i decided to finally learn the ka-50 that has been collecting dust while I used my other modules. The first campaign  I’m sure is very old now but still interesting. First mission has you engage insurgent separatists who are shooting from a crop of woods at your convoy. Come around,  Switch to rockets and increase the fire rate and then send a barrage of them into the section of woods where the enemy is firing from. Believable and interesting. Second mission has you do some interesting navigation through foggy mountains and end up providing cas for a mechanized unit attempting to take a fortified separatist village. You use some long range vikhrs to take out the bunkers and then you can sneak around to scout the village or just run in with rockets and 30mil to clean up for the friendly column. So far very fun. I don’t see the problem here?

 

I can do the hinds tactics in the blackshark right now, but I’d prefer to do the rocket and gun runs in the hind, and I’d much prefer to do the atgm sniping in the Apache. The ka-50 is a good placeholder for now. But to my prior point, you simply range out the target and launch a heavy barrage of rockets and break away before getting close. What is the issue? And if certain SA units are just unrealistic in their implementation , simply delete them from a mission. I’m interested in the hind because it’s the hind, because it is a stable attack chopper with a better looking cockpit view. It’s perceived usefulness as a one-man army doesn’t really enter into my analysis.

 

Youll never get an AI that will live up to what you want it to be, and besides  it sounds like some of you are  trying to make dcs turn into something like arma or squad when it won’t and shouldn’t. I don’t need to transport real humans playing a shooter game to feel interested and engaged in my helo flying. I’ve put over 2,000 hours in arma 2 and 3 doing transport and cas helo missions for dudes playing the shooter side of arma, and dcs with its more realistic FLIGHT simulation is far more compelling to me. The only reason I even consider buying squad is to fly the helos, but after seeing how terrible the flight model is I just don’t care.  I’m not flying for the mission, I’m flying to enjoy the airframe. The mission can be accomplished by all sorts of methods and tools. 

 

This thread is just complaining to complain I think, especially when most of us here have already pre-purchased the module but haven’t a clue as to the product quality aside from EDs good track record. It’s not out yet and we’re getting into debates as to how it is used? Don’t use it on air quake servers and don’t fly against Sam sites. Problem solved?

 

All I can say is thank goodness ED lends an ear to both multiplayer and single player communities. I’d miss out on tons of awesome stuff if ED only ever made things to satisfy the desires of people playing one specific type of multiplayer game 

[Dr.SquirrelBoy12]

The AI for ground units, specifically infantry is awful and ruins the gameplay experience. I have already purchased the Hind since it is the best simulation available, but aside from killing tanks, the only infantry interactions that make sense in DCS would be dropping an igla squad off somewhere or capping an airfield. Fighting against infantry is pointless in DCS, I think back to that one A-10C mission where the infantry just stand there and let you gun them down. It totally ruins any sense of immersion, and as I said before, I believe ED knows this, hence why they did the P model instead of a more iconic model like the D. If you are fine killing AI robots that just stand there waiting to die then so be it, I'll stick to killing vehicles since they are at least somewhat believable. 

[IcedVenom]

On 4/8/2021 at 8:53 AM, CrazyGman said:

Your kidding right? Alpenwolfs cold war server 1947-1991 is one of the most popluar servers during peak times, it needs a few more people from North America to fly on it so that it becomes busy in the evenings in the Americas, but look anytime around 2-3pm Eastern time and the server will easily have 30-50 plus people on.

Ping is too high for NA players.

[S. Low]

They made the P instead of D because the infantry is bad, yet they are releasing the Apache this year as well? 
 

Anyways I should stop with this endless debate. I always welcome improvements to dcs across the entire scope but I won’t agree that helos are a bad fit for dcs or that the current ai infantry/vehicles arent fun to shoot at and be shot by. Thank goodness ED has made these helos.
 

 Cheers

[Dr.SquirrelBoy12]

The Apache was literally built as a Tank killer in the Fulda Gap. I think the Hind depends a lot more on good infantry AI to fight against than the Apache. 

[Mr.Scar]

On 4/15/2021 at 2:19 PM, Relic said:

Anyways I should stop with this endless debate. I always welcome improvements to dcs across the entire scope but I won’t agree that helos are a bad fit for dcs or that the current ai infantry/vehicles arent fun to shoot at and be shot by. Thank goodness ED has made these helos.

 

Totally agree. Honestly, helos in DCS are my bread and butter now. Before i started learning the Huey i was jumping around like crazy between the F-14, F-16, F-18, F-15, Mig-29, Su-27, Harrier, Mirage and hell knows what more in order to find that perfect airframe for everything. I stuck with the Hornet for around one month and generally got bored with it. Then i moved to the A-10 and this is where I have realized that ground pounding is the thing for me, but there was still something missing. So i have tried the helos. Huey, Mi-8, Ka-50 and now pre-ordered the Mi-24

 

Truth is i dont give a damn about fast movers anymore. Spinning up the rotor, hugging tree lines, doing strafing runs etc. this is what gives me the goosebumps. I dont care about which aircraft is META according to multiplayer standards. I only care which airfract gives me a big smile when i start it up. And those aircraft are helos for me. In the end we all have our own reasons why we fly, but I do think ED is giving us plenty of options so that everyone can find that sweetspot for themselves.

 

As for the Mi-24, I am no expert about Soviet tactics. But I know one thing. When I look at the Mi-24 i know its a beast that does not joke around and was built to execute brute force by hammering hard the enemy ranks. And this is something I intend to do.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Mr.Scar