F/A-18 Hornet - Radius or Rate?

[plaiskool]

I think the discussion here is more about airplane pure perf in gun 1v1 area than tactics with bvr, 9x, laser and stuff.

 

 

[Notso]

On 4/16/2021 at 9:42 AM, Youda said:

But, you know, we have dedicated dogfighting servers and dogfighting competitions. Dogfighting is fun and we love doing it, regardless how little sense it makes.

 

I Totally understand that.  I was simply relating IRL vs DCS make believe.  BFM certainly hasn't gone away at all in real life, it's just that technology has changed some of the mindset of how best to get a kill.  In almost ALL cases, a quick kill and then exit the fireball area is FAR preferable to this sustained turn rate vs radius game.  Everyone needs to understand that BFM is a skill.  A tool in the tool box.  A stepping stone to learning how to employ in many v many.  The chances that you would ever be 1 v 1 in a classic BFM fight IRL are so small that it's not even worth considering.  Why we teach BFM is to learn how to manage your aircraft's energy state to either pressure the bandit long enough (offensive BFM) or survive long enough (Defensive BFM) so your wingman can pop the guy from across the circle and then both of you run like scared little school girls while shitting your pants and hoping there are no more bandits around.  

[Notso]

On 4/16/2021 at 9:49 AM, GGTharos said:

 

Let me answer your question with another question:  What's your opponent doing?

 

And did he also tell you about proper IRCM and Rmin tactics?  In the real world you can end up in a merge for a huge number of reasons - the 'if you're in a merge you've screwed up' argument is just BS

 

I'm well aware of all of that and I'm well aware that there are many reason one may oneself in a merge.  But those reasons are rarely good.  Either the sort and targeting plan went to shite, AWACS didn't have good SA on all the players, the bandits defeated your shots, the ROE drove you to a VID situation, among many other reasons.  In the case of a VID merge due to the ROE, you should at least be able to control that merge entry such that there is a missile on the way from #2 the moment the VID call has been made.  But again, none of the reasons to go to a merge are good.  Ok, granted you didn't necessarily fuck up - but going to the merge is almost always the tertiary or lower option.  

[Notso]

On 4/15/2021 at 11:43 PM, Rainmaker said:

Yeah, at what point does it become about the ability to dump the airspeed and get the nose rated around to get inside the WEZ vs the constant debate over sustained turn rate/radius. You may end up at 200kts, but if that means you can go to 40, 45, 50 alpha and get the nose pointed where you need it long enough to let a missile go, turning at 20* per second is somewhat moot. That is...unless you miss.  The eagle can do it well, the hornet can do it well, of course the -22 does it well...and then your left talking about planes like the -16 that have an alpha limiter which might be a hinderance in some cases. The plane that has one of the best turn rates out there might be the one that ends up having to dodge missiles the whole time. 

 

Usually that point comes quite late in the fight.  You would rarely want to trade all your airspeed for angles right after a high aspect merge that progresses to a 2C fight.  The problem is the better rater is going to eat away at your angles.  If you knew your opponent was a better rate fighter than you, you probably want to force a 1C fight to take that advantage away.  You then "Might" try to cash it all in for a fleeting shot by getting nose position.  You can even use your nose authority to threaten the other guy and make him give up energy as well by having to react to each of your nose feints.  But if you do cash it all in, if it doesn't work - you're screwed and will be out of energy and ideas at that point.  

 

As I said before, BFM is really a foundational skill rather than a standalone "tactic".  You are buying time until your wingman can get a shot off at the bandit or put himself in a better position to enter the fight on the offense and either kill or herd him around the circle so you can reposition yourself to then threaten the bandit.   Of course if your wingman has already been smoked and you're on your own - then that BFM skill definitely becomes a matter of life or death.  

 

[Rainmaker]

7 hours ago, Notso said:

 

Usually that point comes quite late in the fight.  You would rarely want to trade all your airspeed for angles right after a high aspect merge that progresses to a 2C fight. 

 

But...would the thoughts on that change as we’ve progressed farther into high aspect weapons?  And maybe not necessarily restricted to 2C.  Outside of training rules, if you found yourself In a fight with a fighter that you know has the upper hand, and what point does someone trade in what they got to maybe get that really high aspect off boresight shot, or ever maybe one that’s very similar in a high threat environment where you really don’t wanna go spinning towards the floor. If nothing else, just to keep him/her busy.  In some aircraft, you perhaps at least have that choice In trading it all in where others might be disadvantaged. 

 

At the same time, recent history has lacked that BFM fight where you have guys floating around in a scissors where you really need rear aspect missile shots, or even more restrictive, a gun. 
 

I realize this is all theory...there’s about as much foresight as us going nuclear with another county...plan/theorize all you want...at some point it all may go out the window. 

[Notso]

22 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

But...would the thoughts on that change as we’ve progressed farther into high aspect weapons?  And maybe not necessarily restricted to 2C.  Outside of training rules, if you found yourself In a fight with a fighter that you know has the upper hand, and what point does someone trade in what they got to maybe get that really high aspect off boresight shot, or ever maybe one that’s very similar in a high threat environment where you really don’t wanna go spinning towards the floor. If nothing else, just to keep him/her busy.  In some aircraft, you perhaps at least have that choice In trading it all in where others might be disadvantaged. 

 

At the same time, recent history has lacked that BFM fight where you have guys floating around in a scissors where you really need rear aspect missile shots, or even more restrictive, a gun. 
 

I realize this is all theory...there’s about as much foresight as us going nuclear with another county...plan/theorize all you want...at some point it all may go out the window. 

 

If you're getting your ass handed to you, you do whatever it takes to survive.  If lobbing a missile at him gets him to flinch enough for you to extend out and separate, then that's what you do.  But it's always a high risk maneuver if you don't have the ability to separate quickly and help is not on the way.  But yes, in a high threat - neer peer scenario, you really want to avoid the two leafs falling towards the ground situation of a classic BFM fight to the floor.  The longer you stick around, the more chances someone else is going to come in and make your already bad day worse.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Notso

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

To add to this, in my opinion the vast majority of online combat and the mentality surrounding it is 1v1.   It's all 1v1 all the time, and if you're unlucky you have to face multiple targets ... all of whom are typically flying by themselves anyway.

 

IRL you'll almost never face any sort of 1v1 challenge.   You'll go from say 2v2 to 2v1 or 1v2.   Tactics are such that if in a 1v2 you choose to pursue one bandit, the other bags you inside 20 seconds.   None of this flying around in circles with people trying to get nose-on ... and that's before we even start talking HOBS weapons.

[plaiskool]

GG tharos, for me BFM is an art, no matter if it's not done anymore in real life blabla

IMO this is the purest form of combat.

And there is more pride for some players of fighting 1Vs1 than 2vs1 or esle.

When you fight against some great dogfighter, and i'm talking about real good dogfighter, people who understand it and will give you hard time, it 's super super enjoyable.

You need to think, asses, react super quickly and every single pro and cons of the opponent aircraft will have a huge impact on the fight.

Not a lot of people give importantance to that discipline, but personnaly i love it as much as formation flying :).

 

 

[wilbur81]

2 minutes ago, plaiskool said:

 

IMO this is the purest form of combat.

And there is more pride for some players of fighting 1Vs1 than 2vs1 or esle.

When you fight against some great dogfighter, and i'm talking about real good dogfighter, people who understand it and will give you hard time, it 's super super enjoyable.

You need to think, asses, react super quickly and every single pro and cons of the opponent aircraft will have a huge impact on the fight.

Not a lot of people give importantance to that discipline, but personnaly i love it as much as formation flying :).

 

 

Agreed. 

[Skysurfer]

22 hours ago, plaiskool said:

GG tharos, for me BFM is an art, no matter if it's not done anymore in real life blabla

IMO this is the purest form of combat.

And there is more pride for some players of fighting 1Vs1 than 2vs1 or esle.

When you fight against some great dogfighter, and i'm talking about real good dogfighter, people who understand it and will give you hard time, it 's super super enjoyable.

You need to think, asses, react super quickly and every single pro and cons of the opponent aircraft will have a huge impact on the fight.

Not a lot of people give importantance to that discipline, but personnaly i love it as much as formation flying :).

 

 

 

It may be an art, skill and "sport" in the DCS community but it couldn't be farther from reality if you wanna simulate real air combat.

[plaiskool]

 

 

What do you mean exactly?

[GGTharos]

In reality it's not an art.  'Art' is when you can't scientifically come up with a plan - not so with BFM - maybe it was like this when it first became a thing and people operated mostly on instinct, but they very quickly started writing down tactics.  The fun part is that you call it an art, then you talk about comparing stats.

 

As well, IRL it's a team effort.   1v1 left the field almost as soon as air combat was introduced - it never was and never will be anything resembling the 'purest' form of combat.  That's like saying the 'purest' form of basketball is having only two guys on the field shooting hoops.

 

I get that you enjoy this and I'm not criticizing that, BFM is great and it is the core skill of how you control your aircraft with respect to another aircraft.  What I take issue with is everything else you've said about it, though I'm not particularly bothered or anything, I'm saying this for the sake of the argument/responding to your question above.

 

Bottom line:  BFM is a core skill, but 1v1 in realistic combat is largely irrelevant (not as a skill, but as a combat encounter - the goal and extent of your 1v1 is all about pinning your enemy for your wingman to kill or vice versa, and a whole lot of tactics exist to ensure that you'll end up in this 2v1).  DCS is different, because none of that team play exists in the vast majority of cases, nor do the circumstances exist that make this team play very important on public servers.

Even on public servers where there's attrition (ie. you lose airframes and weapons for the SIDE, not the PLAYER - do those even exist?) the problem would be that they're public, and John Q Public can launch all your favorite weapons and crash all your airframes without a care in the world and without any cooperation with anyone whatsoever.

 

So what he means is that air combat is not BFM.  It's not 1v1.  Air combat is planning and BFM is a core skill that comes into play for executing the plan, regardless of whether you're shooting missiles, guns, or dropping bombs or dodging all the same things or just trying to tank some fuel.

 

And that's because BFM is a flight skill, not a combat skill - it's part of the skillset used in order to accomplish a mission.

Edited April 21, 2021 by GGTharos

[plaiskool]

Art, Cambridge Dictionary : the making or doing of something whose purpose is to bring pleasure to people through their enjoyment of what is beautiful and interesting.
With the peeps i hangout, we are simple person, and we think that BFM is beautiful, interesting and bring pleasure to us, so yes, "for us" it's an Art...and the fun part is the comparison of stats ^^













 

[TAW_Blaze]

On 4/16/2021 at 1:40 PM, totmacher said:

In DCS World only JF-17 has better sustained turn than F/A-18c

https://dcs.silver.ru/39,12,53,54,48

This looks amazing.. just out of curiosity, what is your method of recording / exporting data?

 

I've done a lot of stuff flown by hand then exporting data through Tacview, but it's rather tedious. Especially when a patch comes out and you have to redo a lot of it.

Edited April 22, 2021 by 104th_Blaze

[totmacher]

22 минуты назад, 104th_Blaze сказал:

This looks amazing.. just out of curiosity, what is your method of recording / exporting data?

 

I've done a lot of stuff flown by hand then exporting data through Tacview, but it's rather tedious. Especially when a patch comes out and you have to redo a lot of it.

 

Hello. I'am wrote "turn" autopilot which measure turn data with collect data with step of change speed (IAS) 10km/h or 20km/h

here is example of measure turn time for IAS 500 kmh, altitude 20m. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNYv-as4no

 

[wilbur81]

Probably a stupid question: But I'm assuming all of these tests are being done without the G limiter o-ride paddle engaged, correct? 

[Snappy]

49 minutes ago, totmacher said:

Hello. I'am wrote "turn" autopilot which measure turn data with collect data with step of change speed (IAS) 10km/h or 20km/h

here is example of measure turn time for IAS 500 kmh, altitude 20m. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNYv-as4no

 

The way the data is represented is very nice. However I 've some questions about it.

Is the "turn speed" page supposed to be sustained rate? or instantaneous?Seems to low to be instantaneous.

Unless I m missreading it, the Mirage in your data seems to outrates the F16 acrosse the entire speed range , which it definitely doesn't in DCS.

At least not if we re talking about sustained rate.

 

Regards,

Snappy

Edited April 22, 2021 by Snappy

[Notso]

On 4/20/2021 at 5:41 AM, GGTharos said:

^^^^

 

To add to this, in my opinion the vast majority of online combat and the mentality surrounding it is 1v1.   It's all 1v1 all the time, and if you're unlucky you have to face multiple targets ... all of whom are typically flying by themselves anyway.

 

IRL you'll almost never face any sort of 1v1 challenge.   You'll go from say 2v2 to 2v1 or 1v2.   Tactics are such that if in a 1v2 you choose to pursue one bandit, the other bags you inside 20 seconds.   None of this flying around in circles with people trying to get nose-on ... and that's before we even start talking HOBS weapons.

Yup

[Notso]

On 4/20/2021 at 8:58 AM, plaiskool said:

GG tharos, for me BFM is an art, no matter if it's not done anymore in real life blabla

IMO this is the purest form of combat.

And there is more pride for some players of fighting 1Vs1 than 2vs1 or esle.

When you fight against some great dogfighter, and i'm talking about real good dogfighter, people who understand it and will give you hard time, it 's super super enjoyable.

You need to think, asses, react super quickly and every single pro and cons of the opponent aircraft will have a huge impact on the fight.

Not a lot of people give importantance to that discipline, but personnaly i love it as much as formation flying :).

 

 

 

I understand that and I've enjoyed some good 1v1  - especially against dissimilar jets where there are always strengths and weaknesses to exploit or be exploited.  Some of the most fun BFM I ever did was against the German Mig-29s.  Nimble little bastards!

 

But actually if I had to choose, I would say 2v1 or 2v2 was far more fun and fulfilling.  And far more of a challenge.  Not only do you have to be able to fly excellent BFM, but you have to be able to cooperate well with your wingman, have pristine comms to establish roles, etc.  There was FAR more to keep track of in a 2v1 or 2v2 at the merge.  2v2 dissimilar was really fun.  2v2 similar was a bitch because it was hard to keep track sometimes as to who was your wingman and who was your bandit when everyone was flying the same jet and performing the same.  

[=475FG= Dawger]

44 minutes ago, Notso said:

 

I understand that and I've enjoyed some good 1v1  - especially against dissimilar jets where there are always strengths and weaknesses to exploit or be exploited.  Some of the most fun BFM I ever did was against the German Mig-29s.  Nimble little bastards!

 

But actually if I had to choose, I would say 2v1 or 2v2 was far more fun and fulfilling.  And far more of a challenge.  Not only do you have to be able to fly excellent BFM, but you have to be able to cooperate well with your wingman, have pristine comms to establish roles, etc.  There was FAR more to keep track of in a 2v1 or 2v2 at the merge.  2v2 dissimilar was really fun.  2v2 similar was a bitch because it was hard to keep track sometimes as to who was your wingman and who was your bandit when everyone was flying the same jet and performing the same.  

Amen.

 

[Youda]

14 hours ago, totmacher said:

Hello. I'am wrote "turn" autopilot which measure turn data with collect data with step of change speed (IAS) 10km/h or 20km/h

here is example of measure turn time for IAS 500 kmh, altitude 20m. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNYv-as4no

 

o_O Can you please share it? Ideally with instructions how to use it?

[totmacher]

22 часа назад, wilbur81 сказал:

Probably a stupid question: But I'm assuming all of these tests are being done without the G limiter o-ride paddle engaged, correct? 

Yes, in test mission i'am turn off OverG and set unlimited fuel.

21 час назад, Snappy сказал:

The way the data is represented is very nice. However I 've some questions about it.

Is the "turn speed" page supposed to be sustained rate? or instantaneous?Seems to low to be instantaneous.

Unless I m missreading it, the Mirage in your data seems to outrates the F16 acrosse the entire speed range , which it definitely doesn't in DCS.

At least not if we re talking about sustained rate.

 

Regards,

Snappy

 

 

Yes, it's sustained turn rate data. In DCS Mirage has a better sustained turn rate than F-16c. For example data for speed 700km/h, 50% fuel
Mirage 2000c - 17 deg/sec

F-16c - 16.2 deg/sec

 

See attach for Mirrage 2000 track file for v.2.7.0.51180 (I'am don't have F-16c for main account)

8 часов назад, Youda сказал:

o_O Can you please share it? Ideally with instructions how to use it?

It's so complex, not full automatic progam complex. Without full manual and instructions it's very difficult to use
Myabe i wrote manual later and public program with it.

mirage.trk Tacview--mirage2000.zip.acmi

[Snappy]

Hey thanks a lot for replying !

Very interesting. It doesn't mirror my personal experience in MP, but I will monitor this more closely next time. Could well be that my flying is not as precise

and accurate as your test programm.

 

Thanks a lot for attaching the tacview readout! very nice of you

 

Have a nice evening,

 

Kind regards,

Snappy

[plaiskool]

17 hours ago, Notso said:

 

I understand that and I've enjoyed some good 1v1  - especially against dissimilar jets where there are always strengths and weaknesses to exploit or be exploited.  Some of the most fun BFM I ever did was against the German Mig-29s.  Nimble little bastards!

 

But actually if I had to choose, I would say 2v1 or 2v2 was far more fun and fulfilling.  And far more of a challenge.  Not only do you have to be able to fly excellent BFM, but you have to be able to cooperate well with your wingman, have pristine comms to establish roles, etc.  There was FAR more to keep track of in a 2v1 or 2v2 at the merge.  2v2 dissimilar was really fun.  2v2 similar was a bitch because it was hard to keep track sometimes as to who was your wingman and who was your bandit when everyone was flying the same jet and performing the same.  

Cheers Notso,
yes 2vs1 or 2vs2 is hell fun as well, the teamwork is key and task of talking while fighting is indeed very challenging and it's fun to see everybody in the same piece of sky.
I cannot say the opposite.
But you know it's like blonde/brunette/ginger, everybody got his proper choice, i will keep my old style chivalry gentleman 1Vs1 ahah.


Very nice Job Totmacher btw.











 

[Skysurfer]

On 4/21/2021 at 4:35 PM, plaiskool said:

 

 

What do you mean exactly?

 

To keep it short and basic, in reality you'd always be flying in at least a flight of two (have a wingman) and it would be 2 vs  multiple (at the very least two). Missile employment would be the primary means of engagement, counter hobs is a real thing and negates any kind of typical "BFM" geometry as well as defensive BFM only lasting a few seconds until you either die to a heater or your wingman kills the guy. There's obviously a lot more to it than that.