reported VR Controllers: Lost laser pointer and bindings

[Fri13]

52 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

But youve Just said

 

I don't use zoom. 

 

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Here

 

Yes, and where I talk there about using zoom?

 

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I cant help but feel like youre trolling us. No one can be that hypocritical to realism.

 

So you claim that sitting in a Co-Pilot seat to operate its functions is unrealistic, but operating his functions from a commander seat using a laser beam is realistic? Okay....

Don't build straw man arguments that is about zooming. As zooming is unrealistic unless you are using binoculars (that pilots do happen to have). As in reality you can't spot things so easily at all as you do in DCS. In DCS you have superior vision all the way without requirement to use binoculars. And zooming does it all even more unrealistic. 

 

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Is this a game or not? You cant have double standards when it comes to having your own way.

 

Is it a game or not? Yes it is a game, but it tries to be as well offering as realistic experience as possible the player wants. Player has option to go for as unrealistic means as possible. 

It is not double standards to say that zooming is unrealistic as you don't have in reality means to "zoom" without optical devices, related to be able fly as commander or as co-pilot.

In reality you do not start swapping seats middle of flight so that commander can select the weapon pylons, the co-pilot does that. If you have a trouble for that, then you are having double standards by using it as argument that laser beams are realistic that commander just extends left hand from otherside of the cockpit and says "Sorry Ivan, I just rotate that knob right there....". 

One could very well go and do a simple voice command software macro that will rotate that very specific element X times clockwise and then set it behind voice command like "Ivan, give me GUV, please!" and then magically that knob would rotate to GUV position as AI is not doing it. One could see more effort to make it so that commander says "Switching to 7.62" and macro is run from co-pilot seat properly. Saying "Switching to pylon 2 and 5" could set it properly again. But how would you really do it with a another human being, is how you do it in co-op. Other sits there and does it when you communicate. Or you can simply when flying alone tilt a hat and you are the co-pilot and you do it, and tilt a hat and you are back as commander. You just played two separate roles as your friend was not flying that time with you and there is no AI that could understand what you are about to do, or there is no flight engineer that prepares weapons systems for launching. 

This is reason why Heatblur developed their Jester and Iceman so you don't need to be on both seats when you fly alone. This is why ED is developing their AI for Mi-24 as even there you need to perform some duties when playing alone, but they did select Mi-24P as well because you can fly it from both seats and do the all required things from front as from rear.

Want the ultimate reality? Play with friends only. Not alone, not with AI.... 

 

You can keep zooming as much you want, but I don't do it as it is unrealistic. And I don't need to as I can read almost everything in cockpits.

My purpose is to minimize as much unrealistic things as possible, to the point where it is sensible and possible. You know this as I have had this discussion already earlier.

Everyone has their own limitations that are understandable. Like someone is using a old VR HMD that is not so detailed and they can't see without zooming, fine it is their limitation. 

Someone doesn't like the idea that their neck doesn't turn 210 degree with just slight nod, so they stay on TrackIR. Someone has amputated left hand so they need to use only right hand for everything, it is their limitation. Someone is blind from one eye but still wants to use VR. 

 

Isn't the gaming fun that we get all the options and possibilities to enjoy from something?

 

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15 people have put their name to a complaint. Its only going to get bigger.

 

Are there tens of thousands players putting name that features exists there?

 

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Let the game players have their issues addressed.

 

So why don't you? I have. I have given them more options what they would need and want, helped them more than you have.

Helped the developers to see what features there would be required to be added to get things better than ever. 

And you are against it all. As you just want the old ways back. 

 

 

 

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This is your opinion, Youve stated numerous times that you use a HOTAS.

 

And you stated how it is more realistic to use one set of VR controllers than using a HOTAS for fitting aircraft controls.... Yet flying with left hand on laptop to press space bar to launch missiles and using comma, semicolon etc to steer TGP as you don't have a throttle where those would be...

 

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The API, might be as simple as replacing the Oculus config for the old one, but asking ED to 'redevelop the controls' i feel is a BIG ask when the players who have the complaint are asking them for the old one.

 

They have already redeveloped the controls, that is the thing!

They have already taken more steps to progress further, not to stay behind.

Now you can use right controller to operate the cameras and move across the battlefield (or at least I have found it just now) as they are adding the core RTS game elements to game now. 

 

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As youve stated you dont use Touch Controls to fly, i dont think your opinion is a valid one, as you havent experienced what myself and the others have.

 

As I have stated to You earlier and know every well, I did use looooong time ago. But they are not realistic like a proper HOTAS is. They don't offer the capabilities that proper HOTAS does. If you want to have experience how to fly aircraft with one hand on throttle and one hand on stick, you need to have throttle and stick where to lay your hands. 

 

 

Those are not same thing at all as these are:

 

 

And those don't offer all the same things as: 

 

null

But what comes to having the proper features on each proper device and otherwise use this:

 

 

As ED has offered all that. To small details, clickable and usable almost everything. All you need to do is to loosen grip from stick and throttle reach your hand on a the system and use it, and then lay your hands back on throttle and stick that has all the proper functions in them and nothing more. 

 

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Youve raised some good points, but they are falling short.

 

The OP has falled short that those systems has been removed. They have not. 

 

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100% right, I dont think this guy understands. And for some reason, he doesnt seem able to understand that he has no issues.
I dont know why he is re-iterating everything over and over?

 

Do you understand what I wrote in the first message?

Do you understand what Original Poster wrote in his bug report?

 

I understand very well that you have only two real bugs here that OP didn't even talk about other.

 

1) no laser beam (opinion should it be there or not)

2) when you have VR controller grabbing a virtual controller, the trigger and buttons do not output anything (not topic of this thread, so start a new one from that).

 

But when it comes to that the common bindings were removed from the Touch Controllers, that is false claim as they are implemented. They are there to be used. 

There is nothing required to be done to get them back as they didn't go anywhere. 

 

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He can play the game with comfort, We cant.

 

Or if you would read my first post, you would understand that was a 100% false.

 

So get to the topic:

 

 

Because as you have been provided with evidence, only laser pointer is lost and bindings are still there and usable.

And it is good for some of us that laser pointer is gone, but we understand your kinds problem that you want it to have but we do not accept that it would be brought forcedly back so that we would need to suffer from it again. 

Instead we recommend that it becomes as an option in the VR settings that player can enable the laser beam if they want it, so everyone can have a choice to have it Off or On. But as you do not accept that, it is same as forcing others to use their gaming devices only with the way you want it to be. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Fri13

[IronStar95]

Same here.  Quest 2 lost laser pointers. PLS, fix it!!

 

Question: what happens if VR button is under the real desk??? I can't hit it...

Edited April 16, 2021 by IronStar95

[Owl 1]

22 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

only laser pointer is lost and bindings are still there and usable.

Incorrect. My Oculus thumbsticks don't register anymore when rotating knobs when they did the day before 2.7 with no problems. Nor do the binds I set for the other buttons on my oculus controllers. Being aggressive with other posters isn't the best look my guy. Just move on. 

[StevanJ]

Just now, Owl 1 said:

Incorrect. My Oculus thumbsticks don't register anymore when rotating knobs when they did the day before 2.7 with no problems. Nor do the binds I set for the other buttons on my oculus controllers. Being aggressive with other posters isn't the best look my guy. Just move on. 

Thanks, I felt like he was being aggressive too, But i didnt know if that was just me or not.
As i said- I dont think he understands.
 

[BIGNEWY]

@Fri13 and @StevanJ please for the rest of us, keep it civil. 

 

The issue is reported, and we will have a fix in the next patch 

 

thanks

[ldwater]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

@Fri13 and @StevanJ please for the rest of us, keep it civil. 

 

The issue is reported, and we will have a fix in the next patch 

 

thanks

 

Great news, any ETA you can give?

 

Thanks!

[Dannyvandelft]

@Fri13 and @StevanJ please for the rest of us, keep it civil. 
 
The issue is reported, and we will have a fix in the next patch 
 
thanks

Awesome thank you!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[john_e_alarcon]

@StevanJ and @Fri13, you both ought to meet in a server and play against each other a couple of matches 

@BIGNEWY, thank for that man. As you can see, there is plenty of frustration in the air (me included) about the new controls in VR. I believe that is because we all love DCS and we are very much into it, so we just want to sit and enjoy it a lot. 

Looking forward to the fix!

[StevanJ]

Just now, john_e_alarcon said:

@StevanJ and @Fri13, you both ought to meet in a server and play against each other a couple of matches 

@BIGNEWY, thank for that man. As you can see, there is plenty of frustration in the air (me included) about the new controls in VR. I believe that is because we all love DCS and we are very much into it, so we just want to sit and enjoy it a lot. 

Looking forward to the fix!

[plane_crazy242]

I guess it's been reported, just gotta wait, I'm in same state,  using G2, no more laser pointer, hat switch doesn't turn knobs or flip switches correctly any more as well. .  but I guess the logoed glove looks better than the old black one.

[Eldur]

On 4/15/2021 at 11:15 AM, Fri13 said:

Again, all switches and buttons are terrible as long the input is repeated as long you are touching the switch/button. You can do a simple easy LTD/R flip as it keeps flipping back and worth as long you have finger touching it. That is what is forcing to use a idiotic "swipe" techniques and trying to avoid touching anything else, or just use a laser pointer and mini-stick Up/Down to do the work. 

Simple fix is that delay setting that once button has just been operated wait X milliseconds before it can be operated again.

 

A much better solution to this would be to cast a bubble around the switch/button/whatever that's just slightly larger than the thing itself and it shouldn't interfere with adjacent things. Once your fingertip manipulates that thing, you can't manipulate it again without leaving and re-entering that bubble. Also, any hard material (so basically the console/panel/whatever that switch is on) should act as such a bubble as well for all things, so no matter how far you push your finger through the panel behind the switch, you'd still have to pull it away to be able to flip the switch again. And to make it even more fail-proof, as long as you're inside a switch bubble, it should be absolutely impossible to manipulate something else, even when for example pushing the finger through the 5 key and pulling it out of the 2 key - only 5 shall be pressed. So in program logic, you could only manipulate the one switch that your finger entered the bubble of, and only that one - until it leaves all the bubbles again.

 

And to put the icing on that nice cake, "just" add a collision model so the hand doesn't even glitch through anymore at all. Check out Boneworks or HL:A to see how that would feel.

 

Oh, and while we're at it suggesting things: If only the hands would cast a shadow...

And, another important thing: When you put your controllers somewhere and leave them be, after a set amount of time (should be in the options, default maybe like 3 seconds) the virtual hands should either vanish (so they don't float outside of the cockpit as happening in my case) or slide onto the HOTAS (which would be more immersive, especially with pilot body on where they should be connected to the body anyway).

 

18 hours ago, Fri13 said:

I don't use zoom. It is 100% unrealistic.

 

Common issue was that we had a laser beam coming from our finger tip regardless how far it was. Any time you wanted to use your hands it was a laser show inside a cockpit. Completely unrealistic and immersion braking.

 

You know what is 100% unrealistic? Sitting at home in a chair with a VR HMD on your head and trying to grab air in order to flip some virtual switches without any haptic feedback given. The telekinesis laser beam is there to make it possible to quickly interact with things in the cockpit regarless how the "sim pit" is set up so everyone can enjoy the thing as well as possible. But I'm totally with you regarding the options. So basically we need the old system back and a "disable telekinesis & laser beam" checkbox.

As for the zoom: I do use it, even in pancake (it's basically a FOV setting). Why? Because not using it isn't 100% realistic either. I'm 96% blind, have a 40% vision on focus with correction, a fixed focal length of just around a meter and basically what a techie would call foveated rendering, or for the matter of current sake, looking through bog rolls. But with all that given I still can see like 10 times better in the distance IRL than I can do in my Rift. Therefore I do zoom and even with zoom, I see things much less sharp than I would IRL with my absolutely crappy "hardware".
First we need to have VR headsets with 576MP per eye (24k x 24k) with full FOV, then we can stop zooming.

All the things you don't want to utilize for realism reasons are there to make up for tech limitations that we still can't get around. They're reasonable.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Eldur

[tabletten]

I´ve discover that disabling the option to use the hand controller only when the palm button is pressed, the hand controller acts a differnt way and it woks! you can turn dials and press buttons and so on!

[Fri13]

On 4/17/2021 at 10:02 AM, Eldur said:

 

A much better solution to this would be to cast a bubble around the switch/button/whatever that's just slightly larger than the thing itself and it shouldn't interfere with adjacent things. Once your fingertip manipulates that thing, you can't manipulate it again without leaving and re-entering that bubble.

 

It is more annoying to be required move hand too much further and then back closer than it is to just hold it there and wait that you can operate switch or button again (when not one that requires multiple anyways). So the size of such bubble is important.

 

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Also, any hard material (so basically the console/panel/whatever that switch is on) should act as such a bubble as well for all things, so no matter how far you push your finger through the panel behind the switch, you'd still have to pull it away to be able to flip the switch again.

 

That would fix the situation that finger pulled out doesn't trigger anything again if once gone past it.

 

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And to make it even more fail-proof, as long as you're inside a switch bubble, it should be absolutely impossible to manipulate something else, even when for example pushing the finger through the 5 key and pulling it out of the 2 key - only 5 shall be pressed. So in program logic, you could only manipulate the one switch that your finger entered the bubble of, and only that one - until it leaves all the bubbles again.

 

That would help many things as you can be more relaxed to push things and not try to avoid trigger something because your hand just went through.

 

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And to put the icing on that nice cake, "just" add a collision model so the hand doesn't even glitch through anymore at all. Check out Boneworks or HL:A to see how that would feel.

 

I would take that only for a panels but not too any switches. As last thing I would like to see is to have finger stuck to somewhere.

 

 

 

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Oh, and while we're at it suggesting things: If only the hands would cast a shadow... 

And, another important thing: When you put your controllers somewhere and leave them be, after a set amount of time (should be in the options, default maybe like 3 seconds) the virtual hands should either vanish (so they don't float outside of the cockpit as happening in my case) or slide onto the HOTAS (which would be more immersive, especially with pilot body on where they should be connected to the body anyway).

 

 

 

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You know what is 100% unrealistic? Sitting at home in a chair with a VR HMD on your head and trying to grab air in order to flip some virtual switches without any haptic feedback given. The telekinesis laser beam is there to make it possible to quickly interact with things in the cockpit regarless how the "sim pit" is set up so everyone can enjoy the thing as well as possible.

 

Yes as I from the start have said (of anyone reads and remembers anything) that is why it needs to exist as optional setting. So those who need it, can enable it to be able operate things from any distance.

 

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But I'm totally with you regarding the options. So basically we need the old system back and a "disable telekinesis & laser beam" checkbox.

 

Better make it opt-in to have beams, as it is assisting feature to not require player move hand so much. If they can't, then they can enable assisting feature like beam, a dynamic pointer position in closest button/switch and even haptic feedback (vibration).

 

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As for the zoom: I do use it, even in pancake (it's basically a FOV setting). Why? Because not using it isn't 100% realistic either. I'm 96% blind, have a 40% vision on focus with correction, a fixed focal length of just around a meter and basically what a techie would call foveated rendering, or for the matter of current sake, looking through bog rolls. But with all that given I still can see like 10 times better in the distance IRL than I can do in my Rift. Therefore I do zoom and even with zoom, I see things much less sharp than I would IRL with my absolutely crappy "hardware".

 

Why I have always said that we need zoom and all other assisting features (labels and such) as there are players who requires them.

 

The problem is that people do not understand how difficult it is in reality to spot a military vehicle next top forest edge even when it doesn't try to conceal themselves.

 

Rule of thumb is that similar color vehicle becomes visible at 1500 meters or less for an pilot when it doesn't move. 

Add some camouflage patterns and it gets very difficult. Add some nets and branches and like and you can walk on it and hit your head to it as you can't spot them unless they reveal themselves.

 

In DCS I could see a APC on ground from 15 nmi distance with Rift. Have a vehicle in the edge of city next to building or open on street and it was easy as having label there.

 

This is why all kind terrain texture mods are important that you get clutter to start hiding those units as should.

 

It is not fun to look a outside and spot dozens of units in 15 nmi radius if they ain't inside forest or otherwise just happen to mix with fake cars and such.

 

Having a AI as Su-27 and F-15 dog fighting at 10 km distance and you could see them against ground and you could see which one is which at 5 km range so you know against which one you go.

 

Zooming was totally unnecessary as it was possible identify MBT from a APC from 8-10 KM when flying in KA-50 and this in a rainy weather.

 

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First we need to have VR headsets with 576MP per eye (24k x 24k) with full FOV, then we can stop zooming.

 

Actually not so much. As average vision is not so super wide as human fovea can't be moved to whole FOV. The only 2° sharp area is as well lower, requiring very low Mpix count. 

 

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All the things you don't want to utilize for realism reasons are there to make up for tech limitations that we still can't get around. They're reasonable.

 

They are for those who need them.... As I have always said, players physical and technical limitations shouldn't be there to deny them from enjoying DCS. If someone can't afford for pedals, it shouldn't be reason to not fly helicopters as they can use assisting features. If someone can't see well or they don't have high res display, they can use zoom. Etc.

 

But I never have said that my standards or my ways are what everyone else should have or do. I just don't use many unrealistic things as I don't need them.

 

Just like I don't buy or use button boxes as I don't need any extra buttons as I use only VR to operate everything else in cockpit than real kind HOTAS layout. 

A perfect system would have a real simpit so when in VR you place your hand in something that you see, you feel it exactly correctly as in real world. That is just impossible for scenario where wanted to fly multiple aircraft in one room.

 

 

[Sirbum]

yes by deslecting the hand palm box, the pointer now works as far as turning knobs or flipping stwitches. doesnt bring the laser back, but at least i can somewhat use

the hand controllers again, with the Rift S at least

[Owl 1]

10 hours ago, Sirbum said:

yes by deslecting the hand palm box, the pointer now works as far as turning knobs or flipping stwitches. doesnt bring the laser back, but at least i can somewhat use

the hand controllers again, with the Rift S at least

It still doesnt allow the thumbsticks to be used to turn those knobs or to be registered at all to be re-bound. It allows you to "grab" the knobs and pull upwards or downwards to turn. 

[Fri13]

4 hours ago, StevanJ said:

He knows this, I have no idea why he's being so condescending.

 

I have told it from the start, and now you are claiming I am condescending you because you keep ignoring the fact that I have shown you that it is not broken for everyone. So stop insulting if you can't provide evidence for your support that it is broken for everyone and no one can have the features that OP said has been removed from the game. 

 

[delenda]

2 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

I have told it from the start, and now you are claiming I am condescending you because you keep ignoring the fact that I have shown you that it is not broken for everyone. So stop insulting if you can't provide evidence for your support that it is broken for everyone and no one can have the features that OP said has been removed from the game. 

 

 

It might be in the image there but it doesn't work for me in-game with my WMR controllers. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if it's broken for everyone or only broken for some. There's an issue, it has been reported and the Devs are working on a fix.

 

Hopefully, it'll allow each person to pick and choose which parts of the VR control system they want to use but until we know, it's not helpful filling up the bug reporting thread with debate and conjecture.

[Fri13]

22 hours ago, Sirbum said:

yes by deslecting the hand palm box, the pointer now works as far as turning knobs or flipping stwitches. doesnt bring the laser back, but at least i can somewhat use

the hand controllers again, with the Rift S at least

 

The missing laser is a second part and only real missing thing for those who want it from the OP post.

I have ticked/enabled the "Hand Interaction Only When Palm Grip is Obtained" setting and all works as previously.

 

I made completely fresh installation of 2.7 and didn't bring the old 2.5.6 series configs, mods, or anything to the new installations.

It is reported to be working at least on the Rift CV1, Rift S and Vive Pro. 

 

What is required to do by the ED:

 

1) Make the laser beam possible be configured as:

 a) On or Off

 b) Laser beam range slider (from 3 cm to infinity (or at least other side of the cockpits)

 

2) Allow player adjust the VR glove position (X, Y and Z) to get it matching angle with the real hand/controller. 

 

3) Adjust each button, switch, knob etc behave so that they can't be interacted continuously with the finger but allows only X actions per second (like if you hold finger on switch it will flip only every 500 ms, this giving time to move hand away from the switch before triggering it again). 

 

4) The laser beam visible all the time / only when grip hold down.

 

5) Handling the VR controllers as Xinput devices so they can be rebinded by any action for anything. In example Oculus Touch Controllers it includes capacitive sensors so when a thumb touches a button or when the button is pressed. When a finger is on the trigger (example A-10 PAC) and when trigger is pulled (second detent). To have Grip button act as a multiplier or rebind A/B and X/Y buttons for anything wanted. This all without any third party software to convert them to emulated controllers. 

[Fri13]

5 minutes ago, delenda said:

 

It might be in the image there but it doesn't work for me in-game with my WMR controllers. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if it's broken for everyone or only broken for some. There's an issue, it has been reported and the Devs are working on a fix.

 

Exactly. My point from the start. It is not missing as it is there, it is broken for some reason for only some people - and not for everyone. 

 

5 minutes ago, delenda said:

Hopefully, it'll allow each person to pick and choose which parts of the VR control system they want to use but until we know, it's not helpful filling up the bug reporting thread with debate and conjecture.

 

It is exactly required to include the bug report that what is expected feature. And what is expected features for the system. 

 

If the ED would just reverse the code to back to old one as here some people dream to happen, it would mean that no progress is happening and other people are again in worse situation as before because they have made bug reports that the laser beam would be gone. 

 

I have said, as the ED is working with the VR controller code, they better add missing features by adding them there with the options for settings so that people can enable or disable the features as pleased. It will not just make everyone happy, it will fix the problems for everyone. 

But there is attitude on some people that ED should go only to previous feature, that is forcing the laser beam for everyone, because that makes only them happy and they don't care about anyone else than their own wishes. They do not understand that there are people who want the laser beam gone, not there, not visible. There are people who want the extended range to interact with buttons and switches with finger gone, so that you need to go and touch them with the finger. There are people who want that they do not need to try to be careful to touch a switch so it doesn't flip 50 times On/Off and randomly stop to either position. 

 

All are options to the VR settings that anyone can enable or disable. So if someone doesn't like something, don't enable it. If someone doesn't like something, disable it. 

 

That requires discussion and if some people have trouble to understand that it requires finding the solution and features that what to add or how to work, it is their problem.

I am not forcing idea that no one should never see laser beams, but some are forcing idea that I should see the laser beams.

 

The OP post is very clear about two problems:

1) Laser beam not visible (acknowledged by everyone)

2) Mini-stick default bindings (as explained even in the settings) are gone.

 

It is nothing about zooming, or about realistic features or can someone grab a stick/throttle and do something or not, they need to make own bug report for that). 

But as it has been shown with evidence, mini-stick default bindings are there as they have been in < 2.7 versions. Not removed from the game. Not disabled by the developers etc.

So the OP bug report part for that "When they are coming back?" is incorrect as they have not gone anywhere. I have acknowledged from the start that some people don't have them and that is here there is a bug, but it as well requires everyone to go through their settings that is there a conflict that cause the problem. Is there a update in their VR software that brakes things. 

 

And if we want that everyone can choose what features they want to use in their VR controllers, it is better to speak than just try to claim that everyone should be silent. 

 

[BIGNEWY]

Thread locked due to pointless arguing. 

 

The VR bug is reported and will be addressed in the next patch 

 

thanks