reported Can easily detect and lock missiles with radar (also shoot them down)

[Bankler]

I'm not 100% sure if this is a bug or not (I don't know the details about how radars work), but it surprised me, to put it mildly. It makes A/A combat very confusing. 

 

You can now see your own and others' missiles on the radar, and can easily lock them up, and even fire at them with high PK.

 

Repro 1:

1. Fire an AIM-120 

2. Note that you see it in the bottom of your radar screen

3. Lock it up with cursor, AACQ or boresight

4. The radar will maintain the lock until the missile is around 10 nm out or so

 

Repro 2:

1. Fly head to head against MiG-29s with R-77

2. Wait until they fire

3. Note that you see the missiles on the radar 

4. Press SCS right for AACQ to lock them up

5. Fire AIM-120 and kill the R-77s

 

Remarks:

• I could not reproduce it with an AIM-9X
• The missiles can also be seen in TWS
• I tested the exact same scenario with the F-16 and it was not able to see the missiles with the onboard radar (so it's, at least partly, a Hornet specific issue), however, if I fired a mad dog AIM-120 when the MiGs fired, the AIM-120 would track and kill the R-77 with 100% repro rate (4/4).

 

Tracks attached.

Hornet_LockOwnMissile.trk Hornet_LockOthersMissiles.trk

Viper_KillOtherMissiles.trk

Edited June 17, 2021 by Bankler
Added remarks about F-16

[Katsu]

+1
 

 

New Meta F18 x F142.trk

Edited June 17, 2021 by Katsu
Added track.

[wilbur81]

I think this was mentioned at some point, but here's the scenario (track to come): I'm in TWS with three or four targets out ahead. I've bugged target priority 1 and fired a 120C... now I'm ready to press NWS/Undesignate in order to bug the next priority target... which now turns out to be the 120C that I shot, which is now right out in front of me. This happens consistently now where my just-fired-missiles show up immediately on my radar as TWS tracks and take priorty over the bandits 10-20 miles out ahead that I'm trying to target.

[Krippz]

This really needs to get looked at. 

[Bankler]

@BIGNEWY
I would warmly suggest ED to set the RCS to 0 on all air-to-air missiles and SAMs in the release builds until you have figured all this stuff out internally. Even if a missile has a (tiny) RCS in real life and scenarios like the above ones could be plausible in extreme cases (maybe?), I think we can live without it for now. It wouldn't impact the experience notably (if at all) to just remove it, at least not in comparison to the funky false positives in there now.

You obviously have other more important things to solve than how radars realistically should react to a/a missiles, so I think disabling it completely is the best and most pragmatic approach at this point. That's my $0.02 at least.

 

@Krippz "This really needs to get looked at. "
I agree. I don't really know how the closed beta works. But as a ED Closed Beta Tester, didn't you get the opportunity to look at this before it was released? Not intended to sound acidic btw, I genuinely don't know.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Bankler

[Xhonas]

+1

[diamond26]

17 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

I think this was mentioned at some point, but here's the scenario (track to come): I'm in TWS with three or four targets out ahead. I've bugged target priority 1 and fired a 120C... now I'm ready to press NWS/Undesignate in order to bug the next priority target... which now turns out to be the 120C that I shot, which is now right out in front of me. This happens consistently now where my just-fired-missiles show up immediately on my radar as TWS tracks and take priorty over the bandits 10-20 miles out ahead that I'm trying to target.

I did the exact same test with the exact same results!!! And you also now have a different icon on RDR Attack page for your fired missile as they are now represented as targets!

[Oceandar]

This was reported couple of weeks before in a thread that is locked. Someone in discord also said beta testers already reported this but ED said its correct as is.
IIRC Chizh said old Su-27 radar could detect missiles without problem so he doesnt see why newer hornet radar could not. So its intended and not a bug.
My search skill sucks. Couldnt find the thread now. Sorry.

IMO it maybe realistic but potentially ruined the gameplay. Knowing this ability in the hornet, I tested in GS server bvr against a Viper and was able shot his missile and easily won the fight without doing any evasive maneuver, just flying straight like nothing ever shot at me.

[BIGNEWY]

21 hours ago, Bankler said:

@BIGNEWY
I would warmly suggest ED to set the RCS to 0 on all air-to-air missiles and SAMs in the release builds until you have figured all this stuff out internally. Even if a missile has a (tiny) RCS in real life and scenarios like the above ones could be plausible in extreme cases (maybe?), I think we can live without it for now. It wouldn't impact the experience notably (if at all) to just remove it, at least not in comparison to the funky false positives in there now.

You obviously have other more important things to solve than how radars realistically should react to a/a missiles, so I think disabling it completely is the best and most pragmatic approach at this point. That's my $0.02 at least.

 

@Krippz "This really needs to get looked at. "
I agree. I don't really know how the closed beta works. But as a ED Closed Beta Tester, didn't you get the opportunity to look at this before it was released? Not intended to sound acidic btw, I genuinely don't know.

 

 

 

We are speaking with the team about this, the goal is to get things as close to real life as possible.

 

Please do not ask the closed testers, they are volunteers and assist with testing and reporting issues, they have no say in product design. 

 

thanks

[Xhonas]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

 

We are speaking with the team about this, the goal is to get things as close to real life as possible.

So if you want to model things realistically, please don't go too far on modelling stuff that you guys don't have evidence about. I know that some things in DCS need some guesswork, but tracking and shooting down A/A missiles is a bit of a fantasy.

[MARLAN_]

 

1 hour ago, Xhonas said:

So if you want to model things realistically, please don't go too far on modelling stuff that you guys don't have evidence about. I know that some things in DCS need some guesswork, but tracking and shooting down A/A missiles is a bit of a fantasy.

Like how SAM's can shoot down missiles?

 

Maybe the 120 is a bit small, but the 54 sure ain't small.

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Xhonas said:

So if you want to model things realistically, please don't go too far on modelling stuff that you guys don't have evidence about. I know that some things in DCS need some guesswork, but tracking and shooting down A/A missiles is a bit of a fantasy.

 

It isn't fantasy; the RCS isn't that small, you should definitely be able to pick them up on radar and shoot at them.  Hitting them is the part that's tricky, and ED is trying to make sure that this part is simulated correctly - ie. the chance that an AAM will fuze on another AAM is not that good ... but again, that's technology level dependent.

6 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

Maybe the 120 is a bit small, but the 54 sure ain't small.

 

AAMs and cruise missiles have similar RCS.  If you can shoot at one, you can shoot at the other.

[MARLAN_]

Yea, I'm not sure of the exact RCS, haven't looked into that stuff if it's even publicly available, but I agree, shooting down AAMs is no fantasy.

[Wizard_03]

Perfectly clean and reliable TWS is also a fantasy. 

[Xhonas]

2 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

 

Like how SAM's can shoot down missiles?

 

Maybe the 120 is a bit small, but the 54 sure ain't small.

SAM radars have much more energy than an onboard fighter radar. And i've never heard of a SAM being able to track and shoot down an Aim-120 or Aim-54. Shooting down a cruise missile flying at subsonic speed? yeah, sure. But shooting down an Aim-120 / 54 / R77? lol. 

[GGTharos]

2 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

SAM radars have much more energy than an onboard fighter radar. And i've never heard of a SAM being able to track and shoot down an Aim-120 or Aim-54. Shooting down a cruise missile flying at subsonic speed? yeah, sure. But shooting down an Aim-120 / 54 / R77? lol. 

 

Not LOL.  Just not their thing, much like will normally not engage the weapons launched by a carrier, but rather the carrier itself.   You can try to shoot down a bunch of weapons, or you can get rid of the delivery platform.  Your choice.

Besides, AAMs aren't a threat tot he SAM or anything near it so ... why would they?  And how would you know that they haven't done so by mistake?

 

If your radar can pick up a 5m^2 target at 60nm it can pick up an AAM at around 20nm.

[Xhonas]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

It isn't fantasy; the RCS isn't that small, you should definitely be able to pick them up on radar and shoot at them.  Hitting them is the part that's tricky, and ED is trying to make sure that this part is simulated correctly - ie. the chance that an AAM will fuze on another AAM is not that good ... but again, that's technology level dependent.

 

I'm imaging IRL pilots asking for someone to shoot an amraam at them to validate if the radar would or wouldn't be able to lock it, even better, shoot it down with another amraam... What i'm trying to say is, there is no evidence of such thing IRL, ED just pulled this out of nowhere and is modelling it based on ''what if'' and guesses, and the lack of evidence will probably lead them to model this wrong, like the fantasy we are seeing right now. I'm not doubting that a radar could detect an air to air missile, but reliable tracking it and shooting it down its a pure meme. Tell what is happening in dcs rn to any real fighter pilot and i'm sure they will die in laughter.

[GGTharos]

2 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

I'm imaging IRL pilots asking for someone to shoot an amraam at them to validate if the radar would or wouldn't be able to lock it, even better, shoot it down with another amraam... What i'm trying to say is, there is no evidence of such thing IRL, ED just pulled this out of nowhere and is modelling it based on ''what if'' and guesses, and the lack of evidence will probably lead them to model this wrong, like the fantasy we are seeing right now. I'm not doubting that a radar could detect an air to air missile, but reliable tracking it and shooting it down its a pure meme. Tell what is happening in dcs rn to any real fighter pilot and i'm sure they will die in laughter.

 

You don't need to imagine any of that.  Most pilots will be shooting in STT so they won't even see it.   There are no tactics regarding shooting AAMs, because like I said, you can try to shoot at AAMs and leave your bandit free, or you can remove the bandit.

This isn't pulled out of nowhere.  The radar equation provides a simple answer to the matter of detection; that the missiles hit other missiles consistently is another thing.

That the radar can track a mach 3 target reliably isn't a surprise either, since mach 3 targets are on the target list anyway.

Edited June 18, 2021 by GGTharos

[nighthawk2174]

An example I found is the 9B sidewinder directly head on is touching ~ -23 DBSM or ~.005m^2.  So for the above 60NMi's for 5m^2 it would end up being ~10NMi for this missile head on and nearly undetectable from the rear due to, quite often, massive reductions in detection ranges due to negative closing velocity especially on a missile that's still at or near peak velocities.  For most other aspects the missile sits around -17DBSM but peaks to really high values side on due to creeping wave returns.  

 

@GGTharosFor the amraam isn't it a possibility that it could be programmed irl reject insane, say, 2500+knt closure rates as not being targets?  This would prevent it from locking onto missiles in most cases no?

 

[GGTharos]

3 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

An example I found is the 9B sidewinder directly head on is touching ~ -23 DBSM or ~.005m^2.  So for the above 60NMi's for 5m^2 it would end up being ~10NMi for this missile head on and nearly undetectable from the rear due to, quite often, massive reductions in detection ranges due to negative closing velocity especially on a missile that's still at or near peak velocities.  For most other aspects the missile sits around -17DBSM but peaks to really high values side on due to creeping wave returns.  

 

Radar guided missiles will pointing the antenna at you

 

 

3 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

@GGTharosFor the amraam isn't it a possibility that it could be programmed irl reject insane, say, 2500+knt closure rates as not being targets?  This would prevent it from locking onto missiles in most cases no?

 

So you're an eagle doing M2 and you want to shoot down a MiG-25 doing M3 ... can you?

[Xhonas]

24 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

You don't need to imagine any of that.  Most pilots will be shooting in STT so they won't even see it.   There are no tactics regarding shooting AAMs, because like I said, you can try to shoot at AAMs and leave your bandit free, or you can remove the bandit.

This isn't pulled out of nowhere.  The radar equation provides a simple answer to the matter of detection; that the missiles hit other missiles consistently is another thing.

That the radar can track a mach 3 target reliably isn't a surprise either, since mach 3 targets are on the target list anyway.

 

Or because its not smart to ask for someone to shoot a fox 3 on your plane to find out that you radar wouldn't be able to track it.

Where is the source that says the RCS of the Aim-120? or where does it say that the APG-73 is capable of tracking A/A missiles? All of this is based on guesses and ''what if'', no proof, just guesses, ED is making their own reality. 

''There is no tactics regarding shooting AAMs'' maybe because this doesn't work? if it worked i'm sure pilots would train for it, because being able to do something like this could save their lifes. But you just can't.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Xhonas

[GGTharos]

3 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

Where is the source that says the RCS of the Aim-120?

 

Maybe you can figure out a reasonable range from the flat slotted array diameter that will always be pointed at you?  That's the minimum RCS.  You can do that one yourself.

 

Quote

or where does it say that the APG-73 is capable of tracking A/A missiles?

 

Same place where it says that it tracks airborne targets.  The parameters aren't 'missiles', the parameters are 'RCS' and 'Closure' and pretty much nothing else.

 

Quote

All of this is based on guesses and ''what if'', no proof, just guesses, ED is making their own reality. 

 

It's just physics.

 

Quote

''There is no tactics regarding shooting AAMs'' maybe because this doesn't work? if it worked i'm sure pilots would train for it, because being able to do something like this could save their life. But you just can't.

 

Man, you're getting really worked up and failing to read.   There's no problem with the radar tracking a missile.   There's a problem with a missile hitting it, which a function of a bunch of other things.

So, you can track and shoot at that missile.  Even the missile's own radar will track that missile at some point ... that's all great, but what are the chances it will score a hit?

And that's yet another reasons not to shoot at missiles - additional to the others mentioned before.

Edited June 18, 2021 by GGTharos

[Guericke]

Just some more things to add on the topic.

 

To reproduce you need to have the 9x on bore and wait for the tone Note: it will track and explode the 120 on proximity fuse, not direct hit. The same can be done on the 120, you just fire on maddog and it will track the aim54, you are not able to . The same can be done with 9x on hornet and visual fox 3 too.

 

I have done the same test against SD-10, both on hornet and viper, and they cant see the SD-10 on the radar, neither intercept on maddog fox 3. 

 

 

 

 

New Meta F16 x F14.trk

Edited June 19, 2021 by Guericke

[_UnknownCheater_]

First,I didn't check my tacview records. But I always saw a unknown target after I fired a missile in front of me,cold to me, after latest update. Sometimes I saw a unknown target near the bandit,hot to me, that's a missile!

So now F18's radar can detect bandit has fired a missile or not!

Edited June 19, 2021 by zhouyut001

[MARLAN_]

I've been locking my own missiles a lot lately after launching in STT, lock switches to my own missile and of course the missile goes dumb.

 

I think being able to detect missiles is realistic, but there should be some logic where your STT lock won't switch to your own missile...