Question concerning realistic use of anti-torque

[TheCrysinator]

Hello DCS community!

 

I was wondering how helicopter pilots use anti-torque in real life during normal flight and combat. With the Hind I experience over 10 degrees of drift angle at times. Do you correct that with anti-torque or simply accept the angle? Also why is the Hind always turning to the right if the rotor torque should turn me to the left?

 

Thank you!

 

- Crysinator

[S. Low]

Depends on the aircraft. Taking the Huey as an example with no autopilots or any assists, the rotor (I don’t remember off hand the direction it rotates) transfers a lot of torque force to the airframe, cause the frame to spin. Can’t remember if it’s counter spin to the spin of the rotor? Anyway, on the Huey it spins the airframe to the right/clockwise. So you need a bit of left pedal and left stick to counter it on take off and on hover.

 

once you enter ETL / forward flight, you need less left pedal eventually because the rotor uses less power to create lift. Then once you get near top speed you may need right pedal to stay straight because the airframe is helping with lift and rotor isn’t doing as much work, so tail rotor is over doing it.

 

“In combat” depends. Combat landing, take off, hover? Combat turns?

 

Generally speaking the helo pilot is almost always working the control surfaces a bit. But when you enter a bank to turn, you’ll need to probably adjust collective, pitch, and pedals to keep the bank angle smooth.

 

That’s the Huey.

 

in the hind with autopilots and dampeners and a heavy frame designed for stability you can trim out to flight hands off for the most part

 

thiugh I don’t trust yaw autopilot so I keep adjusting pedals manually

[S. Low]

 

https://youtube.com/c/HelicopterLessonsIn10MinutesorLess

 

[Raptor9]

Flying helicopters is all about balance. You make an input with one control, you need to adjust the others to compensate. You can use the trim ball on the main artificial horizon instrument to see what direction you need to apply pedal to "step on the ball". If the ball is right, apply right pedal to push back to center.

 

There is also a sidslip indicator in the ASP-17 CCIP reticle that can help you get the aircraft into "coordinated flight" for attack runs with rockets.

 

Also, keep in mind the Hind's vertical tail is essentially a wing on it's side. As you increase your speed, that vertical tail produces more lift to counter-act main-rotor torque. So for a given collective setting, you will require less anti-torque input at higher speeds compared to low speeds.

 

Regarding specific torque effects, with US helicopters (like in the Huey) the rotors spin counterclockwise as viewed from the top, requiring left pedal to compensate for increasing collective.  Russian helos (like the Mi-24 and Mi-8) the rotors spin clockwise, requiring right pedal to compensate for increasing collective.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Raptor9

[TheCrysinator]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Raptor9:

Regarding specific torque effects, with US helicopters (like in the Huey) the rotors spin counterclockwise as viewed from the top, requiring left pedal to compensate for increasing collective.  Russian helos (like the Mi-24 and Mi-8) the rotors spin clockwise, requiring right pedal to compensate for increasing collective.

 

That's what I was wondering about. I have to use right pedal during take off to counter torque but during flight I have to apply quite some left pedal to keep it straight.

I can't explain the latter with my limited knowledge.

 

What I got from your reply is that you should use anti-torque constantly to keep the helo centered.

I was asking this because I can't apply anti-torque comfortably for extended periods of time.

 

Thanks for the input!

Edited June 18, 2021 by TheCrysinator

[malcheus]

4 minutes ago, TheCrysinator said:

 

That's what I was wondering about. I have to use right pedal during take off to counter torque but during flight I have to apply quite some left pedal to keep it straight.

I can't explain the latter with my limited knowledge.

 

What I got from your reply is that you should use anti-torque constantly to keep the helo centered.

I was asking this because I can't apply anti-torque comfortably for extended periods of time.

 

Thanks for the input!

 

 

You can enable rudder trim in the "special" menu (accessible from main menu settings). Then trimming also trims the anti-torque, then you can release it so long as you keep going at the same attitude. 

[Quadg]

pedals with no spring and no centre detent are best for helicopters.

because you rarely have them centred.

 

also the mi-24 has a yaw autopilot.

so make sure you are not fighting with that channel.

 

with the yaw autopilot on you can get away with little pedal input, as long as you move the collective slow enough.

[Rogue Trooper]

It is probably beneficial to learn the chopper without the APs first and then use them once you have an idea of how the machine flies.

The APs are very good though, very smooth is how they interact with the Virtual Pilot.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[TheCrysinator]

Thank you all for the advice guys. I'm coming from a great 3 hour Hind session with a human Petrovic and I decided to get new rudder pedals.

The Saitek ones I have right now are good enough for planes but bad for choppers I guess.

[Grievo]

7 hours ago, TheCrysinator said:

Hello DCS community!

 

I was wondering how helicopter pilots use anti-torque in real life during normal flight and combat. With the Hind I experience over 10 degrees of drift angle at times. Do you correct that with anti-torque or simply accept the angle? Also why is the Hind always turning to the right if the rotor torque should turn me to the left?

 

Thank you!

 

- Crysinator

generally speaking, In forward flight you use anti-torque to keep the aircraft in balance, so keeping your balance ball, located under the Artificial Horizon, in the middle. You may get some drift that can be corrected with cyclic, especially at slower speeds. 
 

when flying you have HEADING, which is the direction your aircraft is pointing, and TRACK, which is the actual direction of travel over the earth, unless there is no wind, or you are heading directly into or away from the wind, these two directions are very rarely the same. 
 

so, you use anti torque to fly in balance, and adjust your heading to compensate for any drift to achieve your desired track. 
 

I hope that’s not too confusing!

[Grievo]

6 hours ago, TheCrysinator said:

 

That's what I was wondering about. I have to use right pedal during take off to counter torque but during flight I have to apply quite some left pedal to keep it straight.

I can't explain the latter with my limited knowledge.

 

this is due to the fact that you require a lot more power to hover than to maintain straight and level flight. 
 

once a helicopter is travelling over a certain speed, 15-20 knots, the airflow through the rotor disk is much cleaner and more efficient, so maintaining height requires less power, when you apply less power there is less torque acting on the airframe, so, in the hind, the nose wants to swing right, and you need to compensate with left pedal to remain in balance. 

[HellToupee]

I use the vkb t-rudder pedals i find those for me far more ergonomic, because just up down doesnt move around on the carpet or move my chair around far more forgiving of suboptimal placement. 

[TheCrysinator]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Grievo:

 

I hope that’s not too confusing!

 

Not at all. Very helpful. I'm not new to helicopters but I started out with the Black Shark so the autopilot does a lot for you. So I'm not really used to real procedures. When I switched to the Hip I just accepted the slip angle but for the Hind I want to do it the real way if that makes sense. Tanks again for your insight. 

[Bunny Clark]

1 hour ago, TheCrysinator said:

I started out with the Black Shark so the autopilot does a lot for you.

The Ka-50 also has two counter-rotating main rotors, so collective changes don't tend to generate much torque. One rotor is always balancing out the other by default. In a helicopter with a single main rotor and tail rotor, you're always having to adjust tail rotor force to counter the torque caused by changes in main rotor force.