Plane explodes when touches tip of the tree) Are you kidding me?)

[musolo]

Plane explodes when touches tip of the tree) it shaves it off irl. Planes cut steel cables withought exploding. There are numerous irl examples. Please fix this ED. Thanks

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[panton41]

So, I guess we don't need those high visibility balls on power lines near airports and can stop notice to airmen about trees near the runway threshold...

 

There may be a handful real-life examples of this, and that are far, far, far more examples of aircraft being damaged or destroyed.

[musolo]

@panton41give me one example of a jet fighter exploding when it trimms he tip of the tree. Just one. That will do for starters) 

I`m not trying to be mean or anything but i don`t get it  though what is it with  people like you chipping in with your "captain obvious" remarks on the clearly stated subject. When last thing it needs is your  "general wisdom" and wasn`t adressed to you in a first place lol)   

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[Oceandar]

I second this request or whatever. Its just wrong when the plane hit only tip of tree and then become total loss.... explode. It seem simplified damage model. I remember seing youtube video an F-16 hit tree and managed to get to the base.

[shagrat]

My guess would be it's the FC3 damage modeling.

Helis for example shred the blade tips on contact.

FC3 still uses a more simplified damage model and from what I remember, at above certain speed, contact with a map object results in a big badaboom. Need to try if it is the same for full fidelity modules.

Also DCS trees are basically a geometric collision shape that doesn't flex, as a real tree.

Considering the number of trees on most maps I guess it's a limitation we may have to accept for some time to come. Anyway, avoiding trees is a good habit for a pilot... maybe some pine cones ingested into the turbine caused the explosion.

[Barra1]

It’s a simulation, not real life. For years we asked for colidable trees for more realistic helicopter flying and now you complain because you fly your jet into the treetop and it explodes. Seriously, do you want ED to model tress bending over, birds flying out of their nests, a big puff of leaves and cracking branches falling to the ground? I see a lot of valid shortcomings mentioned on the forums but this isn’t one of them. Pilots avoid hitting trees in real life because it’s dangerous, how about you do the same in the sim.

[draconus]

5 hours ago, musolo said:

Please fix this ED.

There is nothing to fix. You ask for trees and cables damage model and these go here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/207-dcs-wishlist/

 

You probably hit it with the fuselage - then yes, total damage. If it was a wing you'd probably only got wing damaged.

 

btw: no screen, no track, not even what aircraft... "just fix it"

Edited August 19, 2021 by draconus

[musolo]

@draconusWhen i tipped the top of the tree i instaltly exploded and evaporated as if i got  a direct hit by  S300 SAM)  Wishlist?) If you say so)

1 hour ago, Barra1 said:

It’s a simulation, not real life.

Word simulation talks for itself bud)There`s easy fix just lower tree collider. Or you can go extra step and add second top collider which has little damage value. This number then fed to wing or intake colliders that  "respond" to this amount same way they respond  to damage amounts from gun or missile hits. Though gun round hits would be more closest to thinnest part if tree (Pine in my case). An inch thick branch. Btw in what simulation you explode the same millisecond you tip the tree branch as if all of your on board ordinance went off simultaneously or as if ground crew planted a 500kg explosive charge in the plane and remotely activated it) 

A slight dent on the wing or in  worst case busted engine would be the maximum what could happen in this case. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[musolo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Ki22ApxHA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Cavalese_cable_car_crash

Here just two cases for you to digest @draconus@Barra1 @shagrat

Those are steel cables that you can cut those pine tree tops with like grass trimmer) And even after  hitting them cables jets landed. Now compare damage inch thick pine branch to steel cable damage to the plane -pine branch compared to steel cable its basically non existant)

But hey maybe i`ll try to load my gun with pine sticks) That way i`ll get instakill(complete evaporation) with one bullet hit) 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[shagrat]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb musolo:

@draconusWhen i tipped the top of the tree i instaltly exploded and evaporated as if i got  a direct hit by  S300 SAM)  Wishlist?) If you say so)

Word simulation talks for itself bud)There`s easy fix just lower tree collider. Or you can go extra step and add second top collider which has little damage value. This number then fed to wing or intake colliders that  "respond" to this amount same way they respond  to damage amounts from gun or missile hits. Though gun round hits would be more closest to thinnest part if tree (Pine in my case). An inch thick branch. Btw in what simulation you explode the same millisecond you tip the tree branch as if all of your on board ordinaqnce went off simultaneously or as if ground crew planted a 500kg explosive charge in the plane and remotely activated it) 

A slight dent on the wing or in  worst case busted engine would be the maximum what could happen in this case. 

 

As I said above: FC3 simplified damage model.

Learn to not fly into trees or for that matter avoid striking any object in a fighter jet or switch to a flight simulation with a more detailed tree simulation...

This is something for the wishlist, not "a bug". It is called a limitation of the current simulation engine. 

[musolo]

@shagratThere is even simplier solution. Lower the damage amount of the tree collider. So if you hit the woods the lower you go the more of those colliders you hit hence the more of those colliders you hit the more damage you get. Untill you reach the death(explosion) amount.

And yes instantly exploding when tickled with tree branch is a bug).

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[shagrat]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb musolo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Ki22ApxHA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Cavalese_cable_car_crash

Here just two cases for you to digest @draconus@Barra1 @shagrat

Those are steel cables that you can cut those pine tree tops with like grass trimmer) And even after  hitting them cables jets landed. Now compare damage inch thick pine branch to steel cable damage to the plane -pine branch compared to steel cable its basically non existant)

But hey maybe i`ll try to load my gun with pine sticks) That way i`ll get instakill(complete evaporation) with one bullet hit) 

 

What does that have to do with the fact, that you flew a plane ( what plane? What map? A track maybe? ), likely an FC3 simple damage modeling, with simplified system simulation into a tree in DCS?

Again, just switch to any combat simulation with a better tree damage model.

Only problem is, there is none, that I know of.

vor 2 Minuten schrieb musolo:

@shagratThere is even simplier solution. Lower the damage amount of the tree collider. So if you hit the woods the lower you go the more of those colliders you hit hence the more of those colliders you hit the more damage you get. Untill you reach the death(explosion) amount

Good point, just put a request in the wishlist thread. Will get looked at and prioritized if feasible.

[musolo]

Just now, shagrat said:

What does that have to do with the fact, that you flew a plane ( what plane? What map? A track maybe? ), likely an FC3 simple damage modeling, with simplified system simulation into a tree in DCS?

Again, just switch to any combat simulation with a better tree damage model.

Only problem is, there is none, that I know of.

Su-27 Caucasus

[shagrat]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb musolo:

@shagratThere is even simplier solution. Lower the damage amount of the tree collider. So if you hit the woods the lower you go the more of those colliders you hit hence the more of those colliders you hit the more damage you get. Untill you reach the death(explosion) amount

What plane did you fly?

[musolo]

Just now, shagrat said:

Again, just switch to any combat simulation with a better tree damage model.

Very constructive) Thanks!)

[shagrat]

vor 1 Minute schrieb musolo:

Su-27 Caucasus

Yep, simplified damage model. That's why FC3 planes aren't advertised with detailed system modeling. At certain speeds the damage threshold is basically 100% and boom. Same if you land on grass with too much speed or sink rate. As for much as real l life goes, if you strike a tree in a fighter jet because you fly at tree top level, that's usually the last time you were allowed in a fighter jet... Just saying.

[shagrat]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb musolo:

Very constructive) Thanks!)

Pointing out the reality, no more, no less. Just have a look at the damage model in MSFS. They do this for a reason, as there is a lot(!) to balance performance wise. The first iteration of introducing collision detection to trees in DCS brought any PC to a grinding halt (one digit FPS slideshow). There is a lot more to it than just changing a few variables.

The thing is "Ye shall not fly through trees, neither tall tree tops, nor small bushes" anything ingested into a turbine IRL is a deadly risk to lose the engine(s). Real life fighter pilots tend to avoid trees at all costs...

[musolo]

8 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Yep, simplified damage model

What?) You discard Su-27 damage model?  When did you fly it last time if at all? In fact it happens to other jets too. Btw do you fly anything?

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[shagrat]

vor einer Stunde schrieb musolo:

What?) You discard Su-27 damage model?  When did you fly it last time if at all? In fact it happens to other jets too. Btw do you fly anything?

 

I actually fly most of the modules some more frequent, others once in a while.

The FC3 line of planes (Su-27, MiG-29, F-15C, A-10A, Su-25) are remnants of the original LockOn and Flaming Cliffs upgrades. They have been updated and improved quite a bit by Eagle Dynamics over the past two decades, but still they are "entry level" with not only "clickable cockpit" missing, but a few other simplifications. They got a new FM lately that is vastly better, than the old SimplfiedFM, but is about flight performance, internal systems or structural damage modeling, etc.

There is a reason, ED makes a distinction between FC3/Entry Level and DCS full fidelity modules.

 

I may be repeating myself, but the solution to the problem is not "make trees more forgiving", but "do not fly into trees, as it is a bad idea in the first place", because even if one out of ten times you could survive, it is not something that a pilot would do more than once.

[musolo]

55 minutes ago, shagrat said:

I actually fly most of the modules some more frequent, others once in a while.

The FC3 line of planes (Su-27, MiG-29, F-15C, A-10A, Su-25) are remnants of the original LockOn and Flaming Cliffs upgrades. They have been updated and improved quite a bit by Eagle Dynamics over the past two decades, but still they are "entry level" with not only "clickable cockpit" missing, but a few other simplifications. They got a new FM lately that is vastly better, than the old SimplfiedFM, but is about flight performance, internal systems or structural damage modeling, etc.

There is a reason, ED makes a distinction between FC3/Entry Level and DCS full fidelity modules.

 

I may be repeating myself, but the solution to the problem is not "make trees more forgiving", but "do not fly into trees, as it is a bad idea in the first place", because even if one out of ten times you could survive, it is not something that a pilot would do more than once.

It`s not that i willingly fly into the woods) I mean who does) But there are times when you have to fly tree top level to get "below radar" to loose those bandits painting you or when you dodge a missile and dive and as you trying to pull up  not to hit the ground while doing so you scratch your jet with some tree top with practically a bush like density and BOOM you are dead fireball in an instance as if you hit invisible concrete wall) As you can see this thing is clearly a broken. i`m not saying trees should be more forgiving. i`m saying that tree should not have an "impact fuse" at its highest and softest part)))

As you already know real jets are going trough inch thick steel cables like a knife through the butter and land after that.  
i`m trying to find easiest solution to this  issue. If there is a collider for every tree then it`s pretty simple fix. Few fixes actually. Pick the most performant one. I hope you don`t have one collider for a huge cluster of trees)  God forbid that you have terrain collider have convexing spikes or blobs at those trees positions) 

As far as FC3 jets go damage model is well enough for missiles and projectiles and collision with other jets objects.  So jets are good. its the trees that have their colliders act like buildings or terrain colliders.

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[Dunx]

Marianas low-level coastal flight in Huey uncovered a lot of invisible walls for me, and yes I agree, some tree hit boxes extend far to high above the graphics.

[shagrat]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Dunx:

Marianas low-level coastal flight in Huey uncovered a lot of invisible walls for me, and yes I agree, some tree hit boxes extend far to high above the graphics.

Ok, that's different than "I hit a tree top with my wingtip". If the issue is collision boxes extending beyond the actual tree model, that's actually something that should be fixed. When I last in the Huey close to some larger trees on the Syria map I had the impression the collision model isn't extending to the top, but stops a bit below, which is a good compromise, in my view.

Still the issue with the exploding plane is most likely related to the more generic damage model of the FC3 planes if I am not mistaken. The helicopters do not explode when touching a tree, ripp of stuff, they break the blades, etc. but don't explode unless you smash into the trees at hi speed.

[musolo]

30 minutes ago, shagrat said:

and yes I agree, some tree hit boxes extend far to high above the graphics.

Well just lowering them is one solution.

Just like this:

30 minutes ago, shagrat said:

When I last in the Huey close to some larger trees on the Syria map I had the impression the collision model isn't extending to the top, but stops a bit below, which is a good compromise, in my view.

 

30 minutes ago, shagrat said:

till the issue with the exploding plane is most likely related to the more generic damage model of the FC3 planes if I am not mistaken

You are mistaken. Their damage model is being worked on for many many years. Colliders adequately registering all sorts if hits, with all sorts of objects. Exept  trees perhaps)

Just evaporated in Hornet hitting top of the pine tree) Same thing in Viper)

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo

[BIGNEWY]

Please when reporting any issue include a short track replay showing an example. 

 

Please note, flying into trees is a bad idea in any aircraft and often when we look at track replays hitting the tops of trees is often more than just the tips

[musolo]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please when reporting any issue include a short track replay showing an example. 

Here you go

TreeTipTopHitEvaporation.trk

Complete and instant transformation from speeding titanium and aluminum alloys frame to a fireball) Not even something like gun or a missile hit but total annihilation) 

Edited August 19, 2021 by musolo