Tips for taking off with the Mosquito?

[MisterMac]

Hi everybody, apologies for the questions. I am struggling to take off in the mosquito. It does not seem to matter what I do, I always end up veering off one way or the other. The minute I start my take off run its as if the mosquito has a mind of its own. I have read the manual looking for tips, and I have watched several tutorials about take off in the mosquito. I normally try to figure it out myself but I am scratching my head bald at this point.

I have wrecked god knows how many mosquitoes trying to learn the take off consistently.

Does anybody have any resources I could reference? or any tips? I usually scour the reading material and YouTube for help, but I am not seeing the answer.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[HotTom]

Try this: Locate the indicators in the cockpit

Rudder Trim: Right to the R in Trim 

Nose Trim: Nose down 2

Aileron Trim: Right 2

With the brakes off, power up very gradually (don't just firewall it; be gentle like the Spitfire)

I don't pull the stick back to roll but either way seems to work. Try it both ways: back or neutral.

Works for me. Hope that helps.

Edited October 19, 2021 by HotTom

[MisterMac]

Thanks HotTom, I will give your suggestions a try. Thanks!

[Reflected]

I hope this helps

[MisterMac]

Okay so, I was able to drunkenly get down the runway and into the air on the first time. sheer luck i suppose. My struggle now is that when I am taking off, if I use any rudder once I'm going fast enough, it over compensates and sends me careening off the runway. I am unsure what I am doing wrong. I have tried 7 or 8 times since i started this thread. My technique is definitely better but I still cannot take off consistently. Any additional suggestions?

HotTom thanks for the suggestions, they have gotten me a good deal closer to taking off successfully.

And thanks Reflected, I actually watched your video earlier and found it helpful. I think my biggest issue is technique now but I am unsure of where the issue is in my technique.

[speed-of-heat]

I found that like the spit you need to “pump” the rudder… a little one direction a little less the other etc…

[SQINTO]

The technique that I use (not the "approved" way of doing it) is to line up then full brakes. Runup to take-off power on th brakes. Let go and some initial light tweakes on the brakes to straighten if needed. Once at a decent speed the rudder becomes usable and then use that. I find that powering up on the brakes helps minimise the swing. I've also applied curvature (33) on my rudder (though I use a Virpil Alpha grip with twist for rudder - actual pedals may need other settings).

Hope this helps

[Nealius]

Try 10-15 degrees of flaps. For whatever reason, a flaps up takeoff will have me sliding all over the runway as soon as the tail comes up. The flaps seem to dampen that. I only need minor rudder inputs on the takeoff roll, but I need lots of rudder once she's airborne. 

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I GOT the idea that overall DCS ww2 birds tend to overdo the inneficiency of the tail surfaces at low speeds, and even when the propwash is at it's max values during the initial takeoff run... (*)Yo-Yo addressed this postof mine with some interesting notes... Well, after all he knows what he is talking about, so, I'd rather go with his explanation ...

IL-2 BoX does the opposite IMO. I'd say a more realistic representation would be somewhere in the middle...

IRL I'm freed from having to deal with those rotating props since I only fly gliders, but some, specially when heavy or under x-wind opperations can become rather tricky when it comes to directional control during takeoff and landing, and yet, I never came accross the diificulties I get into when playing ww2 birds in DCS World.

And - Yes! I am aware of all of the aerodynamic effects, and math formulas supporting them in a computer-based simulation

All of those WW2 birds that do't have a lockable tailwheel suffer from that "quirk". Even the 109 can, due to it's even more inneficient tail...

The Spitfire is easier than the Mosquito to tame.

Watching rw footage of Mosquito taking off doesn't look anywhere as "complex" to control during takeoff.

In the bellow video the pilot advances the throttles rather carefully / slowly:

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by jcomm

[Yo-Yo]

0.5-1 tick (REAL TICK with parallax taken in account!) nose-down trim, a bit of right rudder (but it has no big sense because you need to use rudder pedals anyway).
Then brakes on and add up +4 lb and be sure that the engines are synchronised if you use separate throttle levers.

Release brakes and use rudder pedal to maintain straight path initially using brakes because rudder authority is very low. Then, smoothly add power to +12-15 lb, forward the stick slightly beyound the zero and maintain AoA ~8-9 degrees (note the cockpit frame position). 

Do not force to climb till you have at least 260-270 kph.
 

[Yo-Yo]

15 minutes ago, jcomm said:

I get the idea that overall DCS ww2 birds tend to overdo the inneficiency of the tail surfaces at low speeds, and even when the propwash is at it's max values during the initial takeoff run...

IL-2 BoX does the opposite IMO. I'd say a more realistic representation would be somewhere in the middle...

I

 

The plane in DCS turned out very similar to the test results

and you are not right that tail efficiency in DCS is low - CONTROL efficiency is high even at zero speed, but you have to use this power properly. STABILITY the tail deliveres is low, of course,  at low speed.
As you can see, there are two special planes in DCS - Spit and 109 that require takeoff power applied rather fast to be more pleasant.  And very interesting that the pilots that flew and flies these planes mentioned the same.

 

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Thanks Yo-Yo !

Will edit my post

[Nealius]

Personally I prefer 2 ticks nose down trim to help mitigate the ballooning once airborne. That might be because of my long-throw stick: it's not fun shoving that thing forward. I also find it easier to do rolling takeoffs than running up the engine before releasing brakes, to ensure I'm tracking straight. Differential braking before  gaining rudder authority gets real hairy for me. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Nealius

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

And indeed Yo-Yo's handling tips work - just tested and nailled the takeoff :-)

[Yo-Yo]

@Nealius

Try this test: take the default ME plane with no bombs and 67% of fuel, set input pitch axis LINEAR, at 200-230 kph (125 - 140 mph) IAS set the trim for REAL 0.5 ticks (thin yellow arrow to the green arrow) while airborne WITH GEAR DOWN and flaps up. Set the joystick neutral. If the plane is slightly out of trim adjust the trim at 200-230 kph. Take a screenshot of the trim scale.

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

@Nealius

Try this test: take the default ME plane with no bombs and 67% of fuel, set input pitch axis LINEAR, at 200-230 kph (125 - 140 mph) IAS set the trim for REAL 0.5 ticks (thin yellow arrow to the green arrow) while airborne WITH GEAR DOWN and flaps up. Set the joystick neutral. If the plane is slightly out of trim adjust the trim at 200-230 kph. Take a screenshot of the trim scale.

I'm not seeing a thin arrow or a green arrow. Just a yellow triangle and yellow tick marks. 

 

Tested: 125-135mph at 1,500ft, gear down flaps up. Level flight. Stick neutral. Aileron right trim. Pitch trim around 1 full tick nose down. Flying almost hands-off. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Nealius

[Yo-Yo]

So, that's OK.  Of course you can not see arrows, as I used them only to show how read the value correctly. Your case is about 0.9, not 1.1.

 

[Art-J]

@MisterMac apart from advice given above, just to be sure - did you disable takeoff assist in special options? If it's still on, you and your computer will try to control rudder at the same time - that's a recipe for trouble!

Also, just use less rudder once the airplane is up to speed - just like in DCS Spit, in the second phase of takeoff roll almost no rudder is needed (it's easy to overcompensate as you seem to be doing!).

Edited October 19, 2021 by Art-J

[MisterMac]

@Art-J I had read somewhere about not using the takeoff assist so I turned it off. I would agree it seems likely that I am overcompensating with the rudder inputs. It seems like that point where it goes from no rudder control to the rudder being useful is where I struggle. I try to compensate with the rudder to no effect, and then my speed picks up and my rudder input sends me drifting (not just a little, I feel like I'm in some racing movie) down the runway.

Is it really as simple as less rudder input? because sometimes as a veer off I feel like I am going to go off the runway and I panic a little. Maybe my reaction is the issue.

[MisterMac]

Okay I seem to be making progress. I can get down the runway more or less consistently until it comes time for the tail to come off the ground. then the plane begins to yaw to the left and I cannot correct it in time.

Is this just a matter of timing? I know from flying the helos that you sometimes need to predict how the aircraft is going to react. Is that all I am missing with this?

I've also set a curve of 30 on the rudder axis, I think I was over compensating by quite a bit. so now the beginning of takeoff is generally better.

After watching several tutorials on YouTube I think I can see them correcting the left yaw when the tail rises, but I don't fully understand how they are doing it.

I apologize for all the questions, but this is the first serious crack I have taken at the warbirds so I am pretty green with them.

Thanks for all the answers so far by the way.

[Yo-Yo]

7 minutes ago, MisterMac said:

Okay I seem to be making progress. I can get down the runway more or less consistently until it comes time for the tail to come off the ground. then the plane begins to yaw to the left and I cannot correct it in time.

Is this just a matter of timing? I know from flying the helos that you sometimes need to predict how the aircraft is going to react. Is that all I am missing with this?

I've also set a curve of 30 on the rudder axis, I think I was over compensating by quite a bit. so now the beginning of takeoff is generally better.

After watching several tutorials on YouTube I think I can see them correcting the left yaw when the tail rises, but I don't fully understand how they are doing it.

I apologize for all the questions, but this is the first serious crack I have taken at the warbirds so I am pretty green with them.

Thanks for all the answers so far by the way.

Generally, for three point attitude you have to deal with certain amount of P-factor yawing the plane left, as you rise the tail you will momentarily increase left yawing due to gyroscopic moment, but after the plane is in 2 wheels attitude this P-factor significantly decreases. And that is the sequence you have to anticipate.
You can make the things easier if you do not force the tail to rise too early and too fast.

And the second hint, probably obvious: rudder input must be proportional rather to yaw velocity than to yaw itself.

[MisterMac]

So just to make sure I understand. I don't want to raise the tail too fast or too early, and I want to try and keep the aircraft on the two main gears as consistently as possible to help compensate that yaw to the left. correct?

[Art-J]

There's not THAT much of a gyro effect in the Mossie (at least it's a fraction of the one in Bf-109  ) so raising the tail phase shouldn't be a serious problem in itself.

Post a replay track of one of your troublesome takeoffs (preferrably with mission set up as "takeoff from runway" to minimize the risk of playback getting broken, and with Ctrl-Enter controls indicator enabled) so that we can see what happens there. It will be much easier to advise then.

[speed-of-heat]

Try adding in a little more right throttle…

[Yo-Yo]

1 hour ago, MisterMac said:

So just to make sure I understand. I don't want to raise the tail too fast or too early, and I want to try and keep the aircraft on the two main gears as consistently as possible to help compensate that yaw to the left. correct?

As you are able to lift the tail having the stick (watch the Red Square) a bit forward to the center, the power of rudder is adequate to steer the plane, and the yaw stability is enough.
As the plane is on two wheels the only reason of instability is PIO or overreaction to yaw.

1 hour ago, speed-of-heat said:

Try adding in a little more right throttle…

... and with a status bar enabled/