Landing - Carrier speed

[Taz1004]

How do you compensate for carrier speed when landing?  Been practicing on single missions where carrier speed is 11kts and a mission I downloaded had it moving at 27kts.  And find myself misaligned by the time I land.  I could still land but since I'm misaligned, taking off again after missing the wire would be difficult.

Even when compensating, how do you find out their speed?  They don't tell me their speed and only way to tell AFAIK is from F10 map.

[Esac_mirmidon]

First make the Carrier sail at a combined speed ( wind + carrier speed ), about 20-30 kts. Ideally 25 knots is a good combined speed.

Second, take note on the editor about the wind direction and make the ship sail on the same heading. ( if wind is COMING from 090º TO 270º, make the ship sail the same FROM 099º to 279º ). This will make the wind flow exactly over the angle deck.

Third you dont need to compensate for carrier speed. Just compensate for your own AoA speed for landing. Your On Speed is the important thing + BRC of the carrier ( Ship into the wind heading )

Fourth, the angle deck is -9º left from the BRC so you need to compensate on final not the carrier´s speed but this angle off deck position in relation to the ship BRC. This is made using your Velocity Vector, pointing to the right, more or less to the angle between the angle deck and the front of the ship ( The CROTCH ) and follow the meatball on the IFOLS to correct your glide path.

If you follow the ball on final and the velocity vector more or less on the Crotch, you will fly compensating that -9º angle off while approaching easily.

The rest is practice. Think about carrier landing as a runway landing with a slight wind coming from your right that is pushing your nose to the left. To compensate that wind you must turn your nose a little to the right ( to point the velocity vector on the runway ). The carrier is the same. 

The " light wind fro the right pushing your nose to the left " is the -9º deck angle off , so you need to compensate a little moving your nose ( VV ) to the right.

That all. 

But use the ball to correct your glide path, not the Crotch, or the LSO will catch you on the cabin very angry for not follow the ball and follow the Crotch ¡¡¡

The image is a tip where the Crotch is.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Esac_mirmidon

[Taz1004]

1 minute ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

Third you dont need to compensate for carrier speed. Just compensate for your own AoA speed for landing. Your On Speed is the important thing + BRC of the carrier ( Ship into the wind heading )

I don't understand how that can be.  First of all, I usually don't want to mess with mission editor on every mission.  Part of the fun is the surprise.  Once I meddle with ME, I know what's going to happen.

Second, I am aware of the procedure but if I'm aligned 10' off BRC on final approach and land perfectly at 11kts carrier, that angle will decrease if I have to chase 27kts carrier.  Moving more than twice the speed.

[Esac_mirmidon]

The BRC is just a navigation help for initial-break-abeam pattern.

When you are turning to the groove-final the BRC doesnt matter anymore, just follow the visual tips ( position of the carrier, height at the groove, height at the final when you intercept the glide path. Is just an instrumental pattern from abeam to final. In final just aim roughly for the crotch and follow the ball until wire catch. Thats all, the Carrier´s speed doesnt matter if you compensate the drift pointing at the same place on the carrier.

Is not the Carrier´s speed, is where you are pointing your VV what is important. If the Carrier is moving on the wind of course. If teh Carrier is not aligned with the wind then you must face this kind of drift and you need to compensate more. 

Maybe you are facing a carrier not aligned on the wind, and thats why you are drifting more. But if you point the VV on the right place i can asure you will not drift at all from the deck center landing point. Just COMPENSATE your VV all the way to the wires TO THE RIGHT SIDE of the landing point. NO matter if the carrier is moving fast or slow.

Dont align using heading numbers ( BRC - 9º ) , align on final using the VV to the right of the landing spot and use the ball lights. You are compensating the drift with your VV position on the Carrier, if you keep a X heading on final all the time instead moving your VV, then of couirse you will drift on final, because you are moving ,the carrier is moving, the wind is moving, etc. XDDD

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Esac_mirmidon

[Taz1004]

20 minutes ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

The BRC is just a navigation help for initial-break-abeam pattern.

When you are turning to the groove-final the BRC doesnt matter anymore, just follow the visual tips ( position of the carrier, height at the groove, height at the final when you intercept the glide path. Is just an instrumental pattern from abeam to final. In final just aim roughly for the crotch and follow the ball until wire catch. Thats all, the Carrier´s speed doesnt matter if you compensate the drift pointing at the same place on the carrier.

Is not the Carrier´s speed, is where you are pointing your VV what is important. If the Carrier is moving on the wind of course. If teh Carrier is not aligned with the wind then you must face this kind of drift and you need to compensate more. 

Maybe you are facing a carrier not aligned on the wind, and thats why you are drifting more. But if you point the VV on the right place i can asure you will not drift at all from the deck center landing point. Just COMPENSATE your VV all the way to the wires TO THE RIGHT SIDE of the landing point. NO matter if the carrier is moving fast or slow.

Dont align using heading numbers ( BRC - 9º ) , align on final using the VV to the right of the landing spot and use the ball lights. You are compensating the drift with your VV position on the Carrier, if you keep a X heading on final all the time instead moving your VV, then of couirse you will drift on final, because you are moving ,the carrier is moving, the wind is moving, etc. XDDD

I'm not sure if I'm not explaining correctly but seems like you're not understanding the question.  Let's say I expect the carrier to be 11kts.  But it was actually moving at 22kts.  Bit simplified but below is what would happen.  My heading at the time of landing would be 5' off BRC rather than 10' (would be even less since I'd be chasing it in a curve but let's keep it simple).  And if I have to take off again, I'd be hitting the corner as the end of red line shows.

Let's not complicate it by bringing wind.  Let's just say there's no wind and everything else is equal.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Taz1004

[Esac_mirmidon]

Just try this:

Fly the final leg with the VV pointing where im telling you ( at the right of the landing deck, roughly aim to the Crotch ) and feedback the results. Forget about BRC on final. Just align with the landing deck and keep the VV all the  way pointing at that place and follow the ball for glide path

With different carrier speeds 11kts-27 kts whatever you want.

I will asure you will land perfectly aligned with the deck and the bolters or wave offs will be safe.

Take alook at this video, how on every final approach they are pointing the VV where im telling you

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Esac_mirmidon

[Taz1004]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:41 PM, Esac_mirmidon said:

Just try this:

Fly the final leg with the VV pointing where im telling you ( at the right of the landing deck, roughly aim to the Crotch ) and feedback the results. Forget about BRC on final. Just align with the landing deck and keep the VV all the  way pointing at that place and follow the ball for glide path

With different carrier speeds 11kts-27 kts whatever you want.

I will asure you will land perfectly aligned with the deck and the bolters or wave offs will be safe.

Take alook at this video, how on every final approach they are pointing the VV where im telling you

We're talking something completely different but just to prove my point, I did what you asked.  No wind, turned for approach at same point and same turn regardless of carrier speed.  I know I was too high/low but it's the alignment of the runway I want to talk about.

 

If the runway angle doesn't change between 11kts and 27kts for you, I'd like to see the track.  I don't see how it doesn't happen unless you alter your turning point or turn radius.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Taz1004

[davidrbarnette]

To put it simply, you need to adjust your angle of bank as you turn from downwind to base to final so that you roll out on final aligned with the centerline of the runway. As stated above, aligning the flight path marker with the crotch is a rough way to adjust for the movement of the ship and slight crosswind that is introduced. There really isn’t some magical angle of bank to adhere to that will perfectly align you with the centerline… check your progress throughout the turn to final, and continually adjust on final.

[Taz1004]

10 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

so that you roll out on final aligned with the centerline of the runway.

Thanks but again, that wasn't the question.  I don't think you guys are thinking about what would happen with faster carrier and keep telling me basic procedures.

As shown on my screenshot, aligning with the centerline after roll out is not the issue.  Question is.  If I align using the 11kts procedure, I will be misaligned by the time of landing at 27kts.  It's not the position.  It's the "angle".  If you roll out at position you would at 11kts for carrier moving at 27kts, continually adjusting will only correct your "position".  Your "angle" will still be wrong.

I can compensate it and land perfectly at 27kts by turning early.  But going back to the original question, how do you determine carrier speed without looking at F10 map?

Edited November 3, 2021 by Taz1004

[davidrbarnette]

Actually, I know exactly what you are referring to, and no, your “angle” will only be wrong if you don’t correct during your approach. You need to maintain the centerline down the entire approach. If you find that you are left of centerline, which you are in every pic you posted, or that the nose is now pointing down the deck (toward the bow of the ship) rather than down the centerline, you should correct for it. You don’t just roll out and then hang on for the ride. In every pic you posted, you are well-left of centerline. Get lined up. You’re starting our left and never adjusting.

[Taz1004]

1 minute ago, davidrbarnette said:

Actually, I know exactly what you are referring to, and no, your “angle” will only be wrong if you don’t correct during your approach. You need to maintain the centerline down the entire approach. If you find that you are left of centerline, which you are in every pic you posted, or that the nose is now pointing down the deck (toward the bow of the ship) rather than down the centerline, you should correct for it. You don’t just roll out and then hang on for the ride. In every pic you posted, you are well-left of centerline. Get lined up. You’re starting our left and never adjusting.

Can you just show me.  Track with 11kts and another with 27kts.  Assume you don't know carrier speed so you're doing same procedure for 27kts as 11kts until final leg.

[davidrbarnette]

Here’s what I’ll tell you: you are rolling out left and getting farther left throughout the approach. Yes, the ship is moving. There is also a not so subtle crosswind across the deck due to the angle between the deck and the carrier’s movement. But at the root of your problem is basic stick and rudder… You rolled out left and get farther left down the whole approach. How did the plane get farther left? You flew it there. Roll out on centerline and stay there. Forget about the ship’s movement. Fly the plane. In real aviation, when landing, the wind will often blow across the runway at speeds well in excess of 11 knots, and the plane will badly want to turn into the wind, mis-aligning you to both the centerline of the runway and pointing the nose across the runway (“crabbing” as you fly forward). How do you adjust for this? By flying the plane! Source: real life pilot.

[Taz1004]

2 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

Here’s what I’ll tell you: you are rolling out left and getting farther left throughout the approach. Yes, the ship is moving. There is also a not so subtle crosswind across the deck due to the angle between the deck and the carrier’s movement. But at the root of your problem is basic stick and rudder… You rolled out left and get farther left down the whole approach. How did the plane get farther left? You flew it there. Roll out on centerline and stay there. Forget about the ship’s movement. Fly the plane. In real aviation, when landing, the wind will often blow across the runway at speeds well in excess of 11 knots, and the plane will badly want to turn into the wind, mis-aligning you to both the centerline of the runway and pointing the nose across the runway (“crabbing” as you fly forward). How do you adjust for this? By flying the plane! Source: real life pilot.

Once again, track please.

[davidrbarnette]

Lol, I’m laying in bed. No track tonight, but if you go to YouTube you can watch people land in DCS and in real life carrier ops to your hearts content. Better yet, watch a cockpit vid of a hornet pilot where you can see him work the stick on final. I guarantee he’s adjusting much more actively than you are flying the plane. What you are stating about the angle is true, but irrelevant as the ship steams to maintain 25-30 knots wind over the deck. This is adjusted for every day in real life by flying the plane to where you want it.

Edited November 3, 2021 by davidrbarnette

[Stearmandriver]

Interesting discussion.  Few things jumped out:

1.  Taz is not starting out lined up left.  Reference the centered ICLS localizer in every initial photo he posted.  He is definitely drifting left in close though.

2.  This is backwards, I'm sure just a typo, but just to clarify:

6 hours ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

( if wind is COMING from 090º TO 270º, make the ship sail the same FROM 099º to 279º ). This will make the wind flow exactly over the angle deck.

If the wind is coming from the east, you need to make the ship steam TO the east.  Ship always points roughly into the wind.

In the end though Taz, it really does come down to "make the airplane be where you want it."  There is no magic formula, given the dynamics of the environment: moving jet, moving runway, ever-changing winds etc.

If I'm understanding your question correctly, your concern is not with your position relative to centerline, but with the crab angle that you feel it's necessary to touch down with to remain on centerline.  Touching down in a more significant crab to the right causes your nose to be aligned more towards the bow, meaning that on rollout or during a bolter, that's where the plane wants to go.  Am I understanding correctly?

If so, I can offer a couple suggestions.  First, work HARD to maintain centerline during your whole time in the groove.  The runway is always moving to the right (the ship always has at least steerageway, so some speed), so you need to either maintain a slight crab to the right during the whole groove, or make a continuous series of small right corrections to lineup.  The faster the ship is moving, the more crab/corrections you'll need.  On an "average" day (average wind, average boat speed) keeping the velocity vector near the crotch as David suggests is a ballpark amount of crab - but it'll never be perfect.  Adjustments will be needed on every pass you fly.  Make sure the HUD is uncaged when you're in the groove; it makes the VV accurate.  If you fail to maintain centerline and allow yourself to drift left, you set yourself up for the problem you're describing, because by the time your lineup error becomes very noticeable (in close), you have to make a large right correction to regain centerline, which has pointed your nose even further to the right.  Stay on that centerline the whole time.

Then, when crossing the ramp, if you've got a significant right crab in, you've got a few choices.  A quick left wing dip to align the nose with the centerline just before touchdown is one option, but has to be very minor and completed before touchdown - you don't want to touch down left wing low.  (I have the feeling that in real life, the LSOs might not love this option.)  You could also rudder the nose straight(er) just before touchdown, or go ahead and touchdown in the crab but be ready on that left rudder to straighten yourself on rollout or bolter. 

It gets instinctive after a while; I can't say exactly what I do, but I think I lean more towards rudder to somewhat align the nose just before touchdown, and further rudder on rollout if necessary.

Basically, the stick controls your drift left and right of centerline, and the rudder controls the alignment of your nose with centerline at the last second/on rollout.  It's work. 

Edit: oh, and I don't think pilots are routinely given the carrier's speed, just the BRC and wind over deck (on case 3s).

Edited November 3, 2021 by Stearmandriver

[Taz1004]

16 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

If I'm understanding your question correctly, your concern is not with your position relative to centerline, but with the crab angle that you feel it's necessary to touch down with to remain on centerline.  Touching down in a more significant crab to the right causes your nose to be aligned more towards the bow, meaning that on rollout or during a bolter, that's where the plane wants to go.  Am I understanding correctly?

YES.  Finally someone who understands.

16 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

If you fail to maintain centerline and allow yourself to drift left

In the 27kts example above, I kept FPM on top right of the runway all the way.  But as you said, the ship drifts to the right too fast at 27kts.  And if I keep myself aligned on the centerline or the top right of runway all the way, I end up chasing the carrier to the BRC.  Because the important difference here is that I roll out at 0.4nm at 11kts and 0.7nm at 27kts.  Almost double the distance to accumulate the error in angle.

Again, I don't think making adjustments is the issue.  I wouldn't have landed and caught the wires if I didn't make adjustments.  I don't know why everyone assumes I'm just flying straight after rollout.  Is it because I drew the diagram with straight line?  Once again.  I CAN land at 27kts.  It's the angle at which I land at 27kts.

A track file of 11kts vs 27kts would be helpful.  No wind and same approach until the final leg.  Anyone.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Taz1004

[Stearmandriver]

3 minutes ago, Taz1004 said:

YES.  Finally someone who understands.

In the 27kts example above, I kept FPM on top right of the runway all the way.  But as you said, the ship drifts to the right too fast at 27kts.  And if I keep myself aligned on the centerline or the top right of runway all the way, I end up chasing the carrier to the BRC.  Because the important difference here is that I roll out at 0.4nm at 11kts and 0.7nm at 27kts.  Almost double the distance to accumulate the error in angle.

Again, I don't think making adjustments is the issue.  I wouldn't have landed and caught the wires if I didn't make adjustments.  I don't know why everyone assumes I'm just flying straight after rollout.  Is it because I drew the diagram with straight line?

A track file of 11kts vs 27kts would be helpful.  No wind and same approach until the final leg.  Anyone.

 

Ok, I'll make a track now, standby lol.  But I do think at least part of the problem is that you're not maintaining centerline; on those pictures above, you've drifted well left of centerline by the time you're in close.  That just makes things harder to fix.

Yes, the proper place to start your turn does change depending on carrier speed.  I'm still working on perfecting that one myself; I'm plagued by long groove times lol.  Remember, the correct "length" of the groove is 15 - 18 seconds.  It's measured in time, not distance.

I might recommend you try long straight in approaches at various boat speeds.  They don't have to be poor visibility case 3s, just do them in nice weather but vary the boat speed.  That will force you to fly straight in and observe the varying amounts of crab required to maintain ICLS centerline.

But ok, I'll try a couple tracks.

[Taz1004]

1 minute ago, Stearmandriver said:

Yes, the proper place to start your turn does change depending on carrier speed.

Well, that basically answers my question.  Then next question is how do I determine carrier speed?

[Stearmandriver]

F10 map.  I know of nowhere else to get it, and I don't think it's provided to pilots in real life.  I think it has to be assumed, based on wind speed.  (Ie if winds are calm, boat moving fast to create required WOD.  If wind is strong, boat moving slower.  On the other hand, you'll get blown out more during your turn, so... that partially compensates.)

It can be handy to jump in the LSO view (L Alt + F9) to read wind over deck though, paying particular attention to crosswind component.  If a mission designer has given you more than 5kts of crosswind, blame him for your troubles. 

 

[Nealius]

The best and simplest solution is to not practice with the carrier at 11kts. This messes with your muscle memory and intuition when the carrier is traveling at more sane speeds like 20+kts. My preference is 25-27kts. 

I've had the reverse of this happen to me: I always practice with carrier at 25-27kts. Then I hopped on a server that had a carrier at 11kts. Everything in my pattern was FUBAR because the carrier was too slow, and my muscle memory, intuition, and judgement was made on a faster carrier. I Jumped back into one of my missions with 25-27kt carrier speed and all was good. 

Knowing the carrier's speed should be irrelevant if mission designers properly set the carrier to >20kts. Just fly the jet and put it where you need it to go.

I'm probably experiencing a bit of this myself at the moment. With 1.2nm base and 30 degrees of bank I keep overshooting the deck, which shouldn't be happening according to the math done by one of the Tomcat SMEs in another forum....my guess is I have my carrier just a tad too slow. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Nealius

[Stearmandriver]

^^  Haha I just had the same experience when I intentionally slowed my boat down to make one of these tracks.  My pattern timing was all messed up ;).

That said, I think these show (minus my lousy groove times) what we're talking about.  IF, that is, you can play the track back accurately to begin with; that often doesn't work where carriers are involved. In case it doesn't, I streamed them as well if you want to see the video (first pass is the faster boat):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1194642417

 

pass_FastWndSloBoat.trk

And because of track sizes, two posts required.

passFastBoatSlowWind.trk

Edited November 3, 2021 by Stearmandriver

[Taz1004]

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

^^  Haha I just had the same experience when I intentionally slowed my boat down to make one of these tracks.  My pattern timing was all messed up ;).

That said, I think these show (minus my lousy groove times) what we're talking about.  IF, that is, you can play the track back accurately to begin with; that often doesn't work where carriers are involved. In case it doesn't, I streamed them as well if you want to see the video (first pass is the faster boat):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1194642417

 

pass_FastWndSloBoat.trk 2.75 MB · 1 download

And because of track sizes, two posts required.

passFastBoatSlowWind.trk 3 MB · 1 download

 

Thanks.  That helped a lot.  Speed difference was less than I was testing at but still, I think you are showing that the approach is different based on carrier speed.

With 7kts carrier, you rolled out to the left of the carrier at 1nm.  And then adjusted to the right.  Tacview at the bottom shows you were making much wider turn in the beginning (1).

 

But with 19kts carrier, you rolled out much to the right at 1nm.  Flying towards BRC for a while and then turned towards the runway.  You were not lined up with the centerline until 0.6nm.  Which make sense.

 

And here's tacview showing making much wider turn at beginning for slower carrier (1).  Sorry for disecting your landings! 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Taz1004

[Stearmandriver]

Hah, nice analysis. Probably more in-depth than I've ever done for my own landings ;).

I'm glad they helped but I want to point out that neither of those patterns was close to perfect, so be careful dissecting them in a hyper-detailed manner.  It's likely that most of the minor differences you're finding weren't intentional.  They may be related to different boat speeds / winds, but they're more likely my own human error or variability.  For instance, I'm betting that 0.1nm difference in abeam distance has a lot more to do with my need to adjust turn rate for lineup than boat speed does. 

But all these factors are related, meaning that if you fly a variety of missions with some variability in weather, each pass will be somewhat unique. That's what makes this so interesting to me... but it also means that there's a limit to how exact your technique can be.  Boat speed, wind speed, crosswind, abeam distance, aircraft weight (affecting your on-speed airspeed and therefore groundspeed)... different combinations every time. 

So maybe I'm simple-minded, but I gotta keep the rules to a dumbed-down level: aim for 600ft and 1.1nm abeam, 30 degree bank at the platform, 480-500ft at the 90, then start glancing at the boat and adjust bank as necessary to roll out on centerline on glideslope.  Transition to ball when it's clear (I don't like the pop-up) and keep doing what's necessary until I hit the boat.  If the velocity vector on the LA is what holds centerline, cool. If it needs to be at the starboard corner of the bow, great.  Just do what it takes.

Obviously, just keeping things simple like that is hard enough for me. 

[Taz1004]

5 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Hah, nice analysis. Probably more in-depth than I've ever done for my own landings ;).

I'm glad they helped but I want to point out that neither of those patterns was close to perfect, so be careful dissecting them in a hyper-detailed manner.  It's likely that most of the minor differences you're finding weren't intentional.  They may be related to different boat speeds / winds, but they're more likely my own human error or variability.  For instance, I'm betting that 0.1nm difference in abeam distance has a lot more to do with my need to adjust turn rate for lineup than boat speed does. 

But all these factors are related, meaning that if you fly a variety of missions with some variability in weather, each pass will be somewhat unique. That's what makes this so interesting to me... but it also means that there's a limit to how exact your technique can be.  Boat speed, wind speed, crosswind, abeam distance, aircraft weight (affecting your on-speed airspeed and therefore groundspeed)... different combinations every time. 

So maybe I'm simple-minded, but I gotta keep the rules to a dumbed-down level: aim for 600ft and 1.1nm abeam, 30 degree bank at the platform, 480-500ft at the 90, then start glancing at the boat and adjust bank as necessary to roll out on centerline on glideslope.  Transition to ball when it's clear (I don't like the pop-up) and keep doing what's necessary until I hit the boat.  If the velocity vector on the LA is what holds centerline, cool. If it needs to be at the starboard corner of the bow, great.  Just do what it takes.

Obviously, just keeping things simple like that is hard enough for me. 

I think the difference is exactly what @Nealius said.  You're used to higher speed carrier and misjudged the slower carrier.  I was the opposite.  I'm assuming you made the wider turn and then sharper turn with 7kts because the carrier was not where you expected it to be with slower speed and then "corrected" it?  It's just that you're calling it "correction" and I was calling it "compensating".  But as Nealius said, it's probably best to practice with faster carrier as it seems easier to correct for slower speed.

Thanks again.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Taz1004

[Stearmandriver]

Also btw, the boat speeds in my missions were 22kts and 10kts, so it sounds like they didn't get written quite correctly in the tracks.  Good ole DCS tracks... who knows what other differences there were. I mean both my passes were 17 second OK underlined 3s, naturally.