F-15E WIP Update Discussion

[Rudel_chw]

59 minutes ago, YoYo said:

It probably wouldn't be a problem if an approximate release date of EA was given

But having a date would not make the wait any shorter, Instead of getting frustrated I just keep flying and learning my current aircraft (the Mirage F1) and relax on the fact that I have already paid the the module and gotten a nice price discount on it.

[YoYo]

16 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

But having a date would not make the wait any shorter.

Of course, but there is a fundamental difference between waiting for someday there and for "promise" only and waiting, for example, until September. I have no problems with that. Even on Kickstarter, where we sometimes have projects that last 1.5 years, there is an approximate release date. And here we have specialists ;). In normal life, not giving deadline means mess or indecisive . There has recently been a strange fashion here, for not keeping market standards. For example, we have news from the IL-2 series and we have a beautifully described roadmap for the entire 2023 (external companies like Ugra for example are also responsible for some of the work here), the same its for MSFS for example with Service Pack and World Updates (partly). Since we are close and others are playing with the "unfinished" module but in the final stage, it's probably high time to give at least a month when? 

Edited May 22, 2023 by YoYo

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I normally don’t type the followings for free, because of what Joker in The Dark Knight says…

Any development, not just software, comes with 5 components or factors: cost, resource, time, scope and quality. Some says 6 but I just say 5 for relevance. How much to spend, how many people or tools available, what the deadline is, what features will be present and how good the product will be, respectively. The fun thing is, you change one of these, the others will shift also.

So I suspect why it is still 2-weeks^TM, is that the resource and funding are rather fixed  (I guess some of the later comes from our pre-order money), and there is a pre-determined list of features must be completed, like to be able to take off and land correctly, etc. Quality level may be up to debate, but I respect RAZBAM and ED have concerns and “standard” over this in particular, and in software development, it is very hard to control (remember when patches break things?). Then the only flexible thing left is time, unfortunately. If ED/RAZBAM sets a deadline, it will be, as an old Chinese saying goes, picking up a rock and dropping it onto your own foot (Hong Kong has a more colourful version, but I don’t want to be banned), because either the quality or scope or both will have to be adjusted. From a customer POV, this may be worse than waiting. Look at what Cyberpunk 2077 release did, it can break a company. And this is also some of the reasons why most Government projects go over-budget and delay.

One may say, why not get more people. And then Han Solo will say this is not how the Project Management works. It is a TL;DW, I would recommend the classic project management book “The Mythical Man Month” to those who are intrigued.

Edited May 22, 2023 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[YoYo]

5 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I normally don’t type the followings for free, because of what Joker in The Dark Knight says…

Any development, not just software, comes with 5 components or factors: cost, resource, time, scope and quality. Some says 6 but I just say 5 for relevance. How much to spend, how many people or tools available, what the deadline is, what features will be present and how good the product will be, respectively. The fun thing is, you change one of these, the others will shift also.

So I suspect why it is still 2-weeks^TM, is that the resource and funding are rather fixed  (I guess some of the later comes from our pre-order money), and there is a pre-determined list of features must be completed, like to be able to take off and land correctly, etc. Quality level may be up to debate, but I respect RAZBAM and ED have concerns and “standard” over this in particular, and in software development, it is very hard to control (remember when patches break things?). Then the only flexible thing left is time, unfortunately. If ED/RAZBAM sets a deadline, it will be, as an old Chinese saying goes, picking up a rock and dropping it onto your own foot (Hong Kong has a more colourful version, but I don’t want to be banned), because either the quality or scope or both will have to be adjusted. From a customer POV, this may be worse than waiting. Look at what Cyberpunk 2077 release did, it can break a company.

One may say, why not get more people. And then Han Solo will say this is not how the Project Management works. It is a TL;DW, I would recommend the classic project management book “The Mythical Man Month” to those who are intrigued.

I think you're writing about an ideal world, without stress, goals and time running out. What island do you live on? I guess it's uninhabited. 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

12 minutes ago, YoYo said:

I think you're writing about an ideal world, without stress, goals and time running out. What island do you live on? I guess it's uninhabited. 

You know what is ideal? RAZBAM announced the module and was available immediately for (insert your preferred currency here) $1. Feature complete and no bug.

Nope I don’t see it was anything but ideal. These factors were there all the time well before the concept of project management was even born, and there are many real life examples outside software developments projects. Thank you for the challenge. If you can tell us why this is ideal or any alternative. Please let us know. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[YoYo]

The ideal world is a "proverb". A pandemic can always come again remember  and no one can predict it. On the other hand, I deal with management myself and it would be at least difficult to cooperate with anyone if I did not define the deadlines myself as an employee but also as a business partner. I think, however, that topic has started to get too much offtopic. Better we can focus on the F-15E and when they'll give us that date finally, no why they dont give to us if the others can do it. 

[giullep]

however without getting angry or spoiling the day, we think that waiting is the most beautiful thing, like at Christmas .. and that in any case this is our hobby..

 

[AhSoul]

Devs can never win. Give a date, chances are it'll be missed for some reason and people get upset. Don't give a date, people get upset.

Honestly the best thing they could probably do would be no preorder and just drop it one day out of the blue, since clearly many people simply can't cope with waiting for stuff 

Edited May 22, 2023 by AhSoul

[Mik75]

With the beta testers getting it soon, it's probably not that close. Personally, I don't have that much time for simming during the summer anyways. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on it by Q4 of 2023.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Mik75

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I was talking about my speculations why there was no date for the F-15E module other than "soon". Not too off-topic I hope.

I am okay to wait as long as it will be in the Year 2023. I have a lot of modules to attend to (namely AH-64D), things to try and contents I enjoy with DCS World.

Edited May 22, 2023 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, YoYo said:

It probably wouldn't be a problem if an approximate release date of EA was given - even a month would be ok. June, July, later, first half, second half.

 

That's why they keep saying"2023 is the year of the Strike Eagle". Because all of this may well go on for the whole year.  

 

 

2 hours ago, YoYo said:

Simply because of mutual respect.

 

I think that bridge is burning somewhere behind us.

 

I'm sure it will be a great module and I am absolutely buying it. But any sense I might have had of a kind of "partnership" with RazBam is gone. I've seen devs build a solid rapport with their customers with honest open communication, so it can be done. I don't think that has happened here. On one hand that's fine, because business is business. But when it's cold like that there can be a loss of patience and forgiveness on the part of the customer. Which means the discussion could be "You got 100% of my payment, so where's 100% of my ******* plane?", instead of more understanding from a customer base that feels invested in the product because of a good buyer/seller rapport.

[cfrag]

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

We hope these previews will show you how hard RAZBAM has been working to make sure you have a solid module on day 1 of the release. They are still tuning and tweaking even beyond the preview build.

I believe that nobody doubts that. Much of the agony we see here comes from Raz trying to ride the tiger without paying the piper (to awkwardly mix metaphors). If you want to reap the benefits of modern hype (pre-sales, early access, fueled by new media like discord, YT etc.), you must also be prepared to follow through: nobody (or rather: very few) here expects RB to "Release Now Goddammit!". What people do expect that if you hype your product, you then keep up the communication. This forum is where I expect some RB's most loyal customers hang out. Where is RB? Contrast this with OnReTech's presence - regular, near-daily posts about their upcoming product, engaging with people. The contrast couldn't be more stark: OnReTech gets it, RB needlessly drops the ball. Much RB's agony I believe is self-inflicted. 

We don't need RB to deliver the Mudhen now. What we do need is for RB to be present, to talk about what is going on; after lighting the torch, so to speak, they need to regularly keep feeding the flame to remain in control. Just a bit. Put differently - simple minds like mine would like to be reminded that RB is still around and didn't split after they got what they wanted. Engage with us a little, RB, and I predict that much of the frustration here will be turn into enthusiasm. We don't need much, but we need something  (oh, and ED and HB may want to take note...)

[AhSoul]

Is the issue that they ARE doing that, but they're just not doing it here?

I've seen plenty of stuff on twitter, youtube, discord etc. that keeps me updated that they're working on it and it's looking good. I'm therefore fine about how long it's taking. Yes, they should do that here as well - I wonder why they don't?

[Beirut]

7 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

Is the issue that they ARE doing that, but they're just not doing it here?

I've seen plenty of stuff on twitter, youtube, discord etc. that keeps me updated that they're working on it and it's looking good. I'm therefore fine about how long it's taking. Yes, they should do that here as well - I wonder why they don't?

 

During the pre-release debacle that, amongst other things, left the Steam users out in the cold, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't RazBam say exactly nothing at all here?

 

I'm convinced they sat back with their feet on the table, thought to themselves we'd all buy it anyway, and couldn't care less what anyone said or thought. Like I said, business cold and hard. And that's fine, but they shouldn't expect patience or understanding if they are going to play it that way.

 

Anyone who paid up front and feels the desire to vent should go right ahead. Because business is business.

[AhSoul]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - I just don't see it that way. They opened a pre-order, gave us a discount, and there's been regular updates on progress since from various sources, so they clearly haven't just taken our money and are not doing anything. The only thing they haven't given us is a date.

Ok if I was a Steam user I might be a bit miffed at no pre-order discount. But I can see why RB didn't do that, and it's not exactly a massive saving anyway.

Edited May 22, 2023 by AhSoul

[Beirut]

14 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - I just don't see it that way.

 

And that's fine. 

 

14 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

Ok if I was a Steam user I might be a bit miffed at no pre-order discount. But I can see why RB didn't do that, and it's not exactly a massive saving anyway.

 

 

It wasn't a case of the savings, it was being left out in the cold, so to speak, without a word from the devs. Their total silence came off looking like contempt. Which I think it was.

 

Devs like IndiaFoxtEcho and OnRe build customer loyalty and good relations by speaking with the customers. RazBam, I think, just doesn't care because they know people will buy it anyway, so why waste energy on good public relations.

[Silver_Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Devs like IndiaFoxtEcho and OnRe build customer loyalty and good relations by speaking with the customers. RazBam, I think, just doesn't care because they know people will buy it anyway, so why waste energy on good public relations.

Someone need remember with ED and other 3rd parties put any info to maintain a good comunication on the past, someone start to attack very rude, insult develop teams and more, here, on reddit, etc, take administrative actions and force to put a info lockdown... has nothing new here. only review any "Where has my X" posts...

Edited May 22, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[Beirut]

Just now, Silver_Dragon said:

Someone need remember with ED and other 3rd parties put any info to maintain a good comunication on the past, someone start to attack very rude, insult develop teams and more, here, on reddit, etc, take administrative actions and force to put a info lockdown... has nothing new here.

 

Bad behaviour in the past is no excuse for poor public relations in the present.

 

As for Reddit, I have no idea what goes on there, but I have heard it's a dumpster fire.

[bfr]

Don't think i've seen anyone else mention it so i'll throw this into the mix. Seems the manual will definitely be made public ahead of the actual release.

 

[Beirut]

Isn't that like saying the knife and fork will be on the table before your meal arrives? 

[jeffreymg]

They have been showing the cover of the manual for weeks now, saying it’s coming out before the release of the module. I think just release the manual and than everyone will be reading and not asking when is the SE coming out,or not.

 

jeffg

[av8orDave]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the problem with how so many of these developers handle releases in is mismanaged expectations. Obviously they should take however much time is required to get things right and ensure a good release. Having said that, I believe what causes all of the "angst" as these projects creep toward release is:

- Multiple statements saying the release is "imminent"

- Statements saying the release is coming "soon"

- Statements saying the release is coming "very soon"

- Multiple statements saying "a date has been set" without a date ever being provided

People buy the preorder under the impression that the release is "imminent", then are annoyed when "imminent" is clearly not the case and the release could still be months away.

Anyway, enough said on my part. I keep saying I'm going to learn my lesson on these preorders and quit buying, but here we are.

[bfr]

48 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Isn't that like saying the knife and fork will be on the table before your meal arrives? 

I'd say more like a picture of your food and some information on current best operating procedures for said knife & fork. Something to pass the time with though.

 

29 minutes ago, jeffreymg said:

They have been showing the cover of the manual for weeks now, saying it’s coming out before the release of the module. I think just release the manual and than everyone will be reading and not asking when is the SE coming out,or not.

 

jeffg

From what I remember then the last comms on the manual being out before release was 'best intentions but can't promise', so its at least a genuine promise now.

Edited May 22, 2023 by bfr

[Fromthedeep]

25 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the problem with how so many of these developers handle releases in is mismanaged expectations. Obviously they should take however much time is required to get things right and ensure a good release. Having said that, I believe what causes all of the "angst" as these projects creep toward release is:

- Multiple statements saying the release is "imminent"

- Statements saying the release is coming "soon"

- Statements saying the release is coming "very soon"

- Multiple statements saying "a date has been set" without a date ever being provided

People buy the preorder under the impression that the release is "imminent", then are annoyed when "imminent" is clearly not the case and the release could still be months away.

Anyway, enough said on my part. I keep saying I'm going to learn my lesson on these preorders and quit buying, but here we are.

These are marketing statements designed to generate sales, hype and discussion. I doubt anyone knows when it will actually release, since delays are inevitable. ED's closed beta testers will most likely find a lot of bugs, ED will wait for Razbam to fix them and we're very easily in Q4. I have no doubt that the Strike Eagle will be the longest pre order in DCS.

[AhSoul]

4 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

ED's closed beta testers will most likely find a lot of bugs, ED will wait for Razbam to fix them and we're very easily in Q4. I have no doubt that the Strike Eagle will be the longest pre order in DCS.

Depends how thorough ED's internal testers were.