Choppy Trackir View with Vsync off on 60hz monitor

[Ram69]

Howdy. I typically always run with vsync ON as the screen tearing is horrible on my monitor otherwise and I'm fine locking in at 60fps. I've had it off a bit while still tinkering with settings to see how much headroom I gain or lose with different settings adjustments. Trackir is fine with Vsync on, unless I might occasionally dip below 60 (at least that's my suspicion). I'd be getting an effective 30 at that point, I suspect (though never really experience this without trackir and in most games if I dip below 60) which causes trackir view to get choppy. So, I thought I might confirm whether or not that was the case by turning off Vsync. 

The problem is, with Vsync off, everything is fine if I keep my view centered. As soon as I start to look around with Trackir, everything starts behaving more like 30. It's pretty dang choppy. Not to mention the horrible screen tearing. Even if I'm rocking 100-120 on Syria free flight at that time. I've tried the various Vsync settings in NCP, to no avail, as well. Fast behaves like off with regard to trackir, adaptive is fine, but I imagine it's not if I dip below 60, as vsync would get turned off, and trackir is trash with vsync off for some reason. 

I've tried capping my fps in NCP anywhere between 50 and 60, but I still get tearing, and (more importantly) trackir still behaves poorly, since Vsync is off. 

I've seen that folks have similar issues with Gsync monitors and higher refresh rates. I don't have Gsync and my monitor is 60hz. 

Have others encountered similar behavior, and do you have a fix or workaround? I'd be keen to lock at 60 with vsync off, to (potentially) prevent trackir behaving poorly (or at least test that) in larger missions if I ever dip below 60 at all, but trackir behaves terribly with Vsync off, so... I'm a bit at a loss. 

EDIT: Numpad view is fine with vsync off. So, seems some weird combination of vsync off and trackir (and possibly vsync on if I dip below 60 at all, though not sure on the last one as I can't really test it so long as vcync off creates issues with trackir).   

Thanks.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Ram69

[_Hoss]

Some screen shots of your nvcp settings, your TIR settings and games graphic settings would help us figure out your issue. My old graphics card, monitor set up sounds like yours, if I  turned off vsync I could not and did not want to play the game. I never turn on vsync, or triple buffering in nvcp, I  used the game vsync, and my monitor was a 60hz refresh and it was running great on an old 1060 card.

[Flappie]

Some info here:

 

[Ram69]

Thanks, but as mentioned, I don't have G sync. My monitor is 60hz. I get trackir-induced stuttering if one of the two is true:

* Vsync is on and my frame rate is anything other than a Vsync-imposed 60. If my fps is higher (e.g. vsync fast), trackir stutters. If it's even a few fps lower, trackir stutters. 

* If Vsync is set to OFF. Trackir will always stutter at any frame rate, uncluding w/ an NCP imposed fps cap.

Vsyc off = trackir stutter always. Vsync on = trackir stutter if fps is anthing other than 60.

 

Numpad is fine, so seems specific to trackir views. 

[_Hoss]

Without screen shots of your settings we would only be guessing about your problem.

[SharpeXB]

I’m using Nvidia CP Fast Vsync with the in-game Vsync off. And a 60hz monitor. And I don’t detect any stuttering from TrackIR or see any screen tearing. My CPU is a bit old so I can frequently drop below 60fps yet Fast Vsync seems to keep everything smooth. If I didn’t turn on an FPS counter I wouldn’t notice the frame rate. All seems very smooth. Even Syria is ok. 

[Ram69]

From all of the threads I've read on trackir-induced stuttering in DCS, it seems that there are only guesses. I've tried many settings. The end-result seems to be just to do whatever is needed settings-wise to *always* stay at 60 fps w/Vsync on. Don't go over 60. Don't go below, or trackir views will stutter while the game is otherwise fine (e.g. numpad views). 

 

Here ya' go, though. I was running at 4x MSAA as it ran well there and looks great, but I've opted instead for NCP MFAA, which makes text a bit more jaggy but mostly does the trick for buildings and trees in low level flight. I've opted for this just to give myself more room to stay at the seemingly magic 60 number required for trackir look around to remain smooth *in DCS*. With these settings, I'm hanging mostly around 100-125 in free flight on the Syria map, so I've got plenty of room as I'm only interested in not dipping too far below 60, problem is, even 2 or 3fps below 60 brings on the trackir-stutter. 

 

It's not a humungous issue for me at the moment as I've plenty of room to work with, but as I start playing more and more involved missions as I'm re-learning things, the occasional dips below 60 are untenable b/c of the strobe of trackir view in those situations (otherwise, I'd be fine with those as well, as it's still a smooth enough experience for me, and a momentary one, were it not for whatever is going on w/ trackir). I'd rather not dumb my settings down too much just to prevent trackir views from stuttering, as I've a good amount of room to work with already with my current settings and performance is otherwise great (for me). 

[Bossco82]

HI Ram69,

There are a few rules to follow to get a smooth experience in DCS using Track IR. I can tell you more if I have your GPU and your monitor model.

Basically if you do not have a Freesync or Gsync capable monitor then you need to run with V-sync set to on. Otherwise you will get some tearing regardless of if you are using a Track IR or not. You will also get tearing if your framrate fps drops below probably 55ish for any length of time. Ideally you need you GPU to be able to stay at about 65 to maintain 60. So its a balance of settings vs what your GPU can handle.

I had this problem for ages and ages and it could be a few things. This is what can affect Track IR only.

Do you have usb selective suspending disabled in your Windows power options? Are you using a non powered usb hub? Is the actual Track IR unit plugged directly into the motherboard? What are your Track IR settings, do you have a smooth enough profile in the first place.

I have a AMD 6800xt and a Freesync monitor so I can play around with variable framerates. In DCS if you drop below about 55ish FPS Track IR will look very choppy, thats normal. 

Your DCS settings look ok, maybe change FXAA=on but I need to know your GPU first. 100-120fps over Syria, what altitude id that at though. Whats the fps down low?

[Ram69]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m using Nvidia CP Fast Vsync with the in-game Vsync off. And a 60hz monitor. And I don’t detect any stuttering from TrackIR or see any screen tearing. My CPU is a bit old so I can frequently drop below 60fps yet Fast Vsync seems to keep everything smooth. If I didn’t turn on an FPS counter I wouldn’t notice the frame rate. All seems very smooth. Even Syria is ok. 

That's interesting. Unfortunately, Fast didn't work well for me with regard to rrackir stutter Straight "on" at and 60fps does the trick (Adaptive is fine too, as long as it doesn't dip below 60, since that Vsync gets turned off and that induces trackir stutter for me. With fast, I'd get 100-125, but trackir behaved poorly as it seemingly does at any fps that isn't 60 and vsync on. with fast, even with 100+ fps, trackir view was more like 30fps (while numapd view, or centered straight ahead is fine in any of these scenarios that I've observed so far). 

[will-]

the problem ur facing i don't think u can fix.  if ur comparing trackir to pausing trackir and free looking smoothness; i have yet to find a solution and just live with stutters.  but these topics are sometimes hard to troubleshoot b/c u will just get everyones input.

Edited November 28, 2021 by will-

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Ram69 said:

Fast didn't work well for me with regard to rrackir stutter Straight "on" at and 60fps does the trick

Certainly that should be the best option. Set VS to 60. 
I can’t say I’ve ever noticed stuttering from TrackIR or I’m just not sensitive to it. In MSFS since it’s so demanding and it’s not a fast combat game I find locking the FPS to 30 looks great and TrackIR performs fine. 

[Bagpipe]

Can you share your system specs please and is it TrackIR brand or another head tracker you use?

Edited November 28, 2021 by Bagpipe

[Ram69]

@Bossco82Thanks for your reply. I'm running an RTX 3080 w/ this monitor: LG 34WN80C-B

Granted, it's been a good 5 years since I've played DCS much at all (and on lesser hardware at that time), but I don't remember trackir inducing such stutter anywhere that isn't "on the nose, 60" (and vsync on. capped at 60 w vsync off is still bad). 

To answer your other questions, I'm running the "High performance" profile. I've just had a look and selective suspend is enabled. I can try turning that off to test. No hub. Trackir is direclty into the mobo. My trackir is set to smooth 50. I've also tried a range between 30 and 50. 

For those FPS, mostly what I'm jumping in to to test settings changes is low level over the city you start over in an A-10C II on the free flight instant action. 50 to a few hundred feet over the city there. I opted for FXAA today as a test, rather than in-game MSAA of 4x, just to give myself some extra headroom for missions and such. The difference was pretty significant (going from 80-100 to 100-125) and the visual loss was small enough that I was happy with the tradeoff.

@will-I think you' might be right. As mentioned, it's been a while for me, but I just don't remember trackir behaving as such in DCS, in Arma, or other games. My experience has typically been that it behaves about as well as the frame rate  That doesn't seem to be the case since coming back into DCS. 

Thankfully, it's a smaller occurrence as I get good performance for the most part (at least in more basic stuff as I'm re-learning it all over again at the moment). It's just a bit annoying, the prospect of having to have to dumb things down more and more in the future (as I get more into larger missions and such) just to keep a magic number so trackir doesn't crap the bed. 

The weak spot in my system is my CPU, an i7 6700k at 4.2GHz (I'm still not compelled to upgrade it yet). Otherwise, an m.2 NVMe 2TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus, 64GB DDR4 at 3200Mhz, c16. RTX 3080, @Bagpipe. Oh. And, it is Trackir 5, I've had since forever ago

Edited November 28, 2021 by Ram69

[_Hoss]

For one turn your cockpit off from 1024 everytime, to just 1024. When you go from looking at your cockpit to looking outside your VGA will change the way it renders frames, and hic-up. Also see what happens when you go from Full-screen on, to off.  We still have not seen your TIR settings. I can PM you my TIR profile if you would like to try it.

[Bossco82]

Right ok that information helps. I have physically had a 3080 in my own PC running DCS with a Track IR and it was as smooth as, even Syria.

You have two separate issues you need to stabilise. Track IR and FPS, deal with these separately.

For your FPS from using a 3080 you can leave pretty much anything in the NV control panel alone. Apart from setting "prefer max performance" You have so much headroom with a 3080 using 1440p ultrawide. You should be able to use high settings with the trees and buildings radius at max. Shadows really knock fps about when flying low and when your landing. Try those at low they still look fine. Set MSAA to 4. 

Basically you need your monitor, GPU and DCS locked to 60fps otherwise you will get tearing and chops and stutters. Your monitor has no variable framerate tech so that is determining you running at 60hz. If you did have a variable rate monitor this would not apply to you.

The Track IR. Turn the usb selective suspend to "disabled". That will stop Windows turning it on and off, it can happen. Open the Track IR software and see if its working correctly first. If you could share your profile that would help too. Like "Hoss" said. I can also share a profile I know works well. He is also correct about running 1024 not 1024 every frame.

Running ultrawide you might get the occasional and I mean occasional hiccup, but it should not be a constant thing. Its just more noticed because its a curved ultrawide monitor.

This can be a pain to get right but it sounds like your a couple of clicks away from a smooth experience.

Final question, is the face of the Track IR clean? You using the hat clip or the pro clip with the led's. If its the pro clip are the led's lighting up properly.

[Bagpipe]

I would definitely turn v-sync off. I have a 60hz 1440p monitor and do not use v-sync. Never have and do not get head track stuttering. I remember some issues years ago when I first got into DCS but I can't for the life of me remember what it was that sorted it out for me in the end.

One thing to check is the general "health" of your rig. With your hardware you should be holding good enough frame rates with higher settings than you have. Have you checked that your RAM is running at the correct setting in your BIOS. CPU-z is great for telling you what is actually going on with your rig.

A massive one which could really help is your paging file needs to be set correctly. If you have 64gb of RAM I would be setting at least 32gb aside on your windows drive and assigning your paging file to "custom size" to allow it to use this space. https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/how-to-manage-virtual-memory-pagefile-windows-10,36929.html You have to remember to keep that space free on the drive going forward though and deselect the "Automatically manage size" box in the settings window.

As Bossco says, making sure that the USB isn't being suspended by Windows is very important too 

[Ram69]

5 minutes ago, 352nd_Hoss said:

For one turn your cockpit off from 1024 everytime, to just 1024. When you go from looking at your cockpit to looking outside your VGA will change the way it renders frames, and hic-up. Also see what happens when you go from Full-screen on, to off.  We still have not seen your TIR settings. I can PM you my TIR profile if you would like to try it.

Unfortunately, I've already tried both of those with no change regarding this issue.

My trackir is responsive and fine, except in the above context. I mean, outside of this issue, Vsync on and at 60fps, it's great. Everything is glassy and so is my Trackir movement. I'm pretty over the moon w/ my performance (vs. 5 or 6 years ago when I was playing last ) outside of this little niggle of the trackir chopping up outside of anything other than vSync on, constant 60. I can just tell already that the more I get back into more involved stuff, that it's likely it'll only be an issue at all of the important times, and then will be frustrating. 

@BagpipeAs I mentioned, unfortunately for me, Vsync off causes trackir to start chopping lettuce, no matter the framerate.

[Bossco82]

Ram69,

Answer me one question here please mate. Is the problem your trying to solve the fact that you CANT get your Track IR smooth enough for YOU without V-sync?

I ask this question because a mate of mine runs without V-sync for Sturmovik using a Track IR, he has no problem. I CANNOT use his system like this as I would get a headache, to ME its really choppy. I think sometimes what is stuttery to one is not to another. So it becomes subjective. 

I am someone who is super sensitive to stutters because I am sensitive to strobe lighting etc, it really gives me a headache.

The smoothest experience I have achieved for MYSELF is to either run with V-sync enabled in the GPU control software and in whatever game I am playing when I am using a non variable refresh rate monitor. It has been that way for me with flight sims for the past 10+ years. I therefore have to tune my graphics settings in the game to make sure my PC can produce 60fps plus 99.9% of the time. I stress this is for me to have a happy flying time.

Setting up for a variable refresh rate monitor is different but does not apply to you situation anyway.

While I am asking what CPU and Dram are you running with that 3080? I ask because a 3080 should have no problem whatsoever holding 60fps plus in DCS at the resolution of your monitor. Achieving a smooth experience shouldn't really be a problem. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Bossco82

[Boosterdog]

@Ram69 I dont think you are but Im not sure you are under the impression that somehow vsync is limiting you in a way that it isnt. Although its fixing the output a 60 fps doesnt mean that this is all your rig can produce and that increased demands will eat away from this. In heavier scenes, your rig will just work harder to ensure that 60 fps is maintained. It doesnt need to have the headroom "up front". With vsync off the FPS counter may be showing 100 fps but you are not seeing 100 fps. All its doing is reading what the average per second output of the game engine is. Your screen is still only displaying 60 frames every second and those frames are no longer evenly paced. 

TIR camera works using 60 or 120 Hz.  Its very strict about this. Without the system acheiving one or the other TIR will not appear smooth.  Frame capping does not ensure even frame pacing and its the frame pacing that is important especially at the lower outputs of 60hz. If you could acheive 120fps at all times and had a 120 hz monitor Id venture that you could possibly live without vsync and use a cap. Ive never had the luxury to see.  

Vsync in basic form instructs the game engine to throw only 60 even paced frames out per second. The idea behind adaptive vsync you know and yes its crap.   Fast sync allows the engine to produce all the frames it can but the front buffer still only shoves out 60 frames to the monitor The idea is to reduce lag whilst preventing tearing by utilising 2 "flip flop" buffers that will always push the most recently completed frame to the front buffer which is not dissimilar in concept to the old triple buffer which Nvidia abandoned for D3D games with the 600 cards.  Provided you have enough frames the result should be smooth. The less you are able to produce double the frames required the more the motion can appear jittery and may still fault TIR. Again, personally I avoid it as I cant guarantee a constant 120 fps needed to enure those flip flps are always fully rendered within the 60hz read/draw cycle. 

Either way, if you are bound to using a monitor without gsync/freesync, the only way to guarantee fluid TIR is to run at a consistent and even paced 60 or 120 fps. And that best acheived, certainly at 60hz, by using vsync.  If you are thinking of using Fast sync, the worst place you can be is to be producing between 60-90 fps in the main. 

It has been ever so. 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Boosterdog

[Bossco82]

Thats a very good explanation there regarding V-sync and Track IR. Couldn't put it better.

[_Hoss]

Don't lock your monitor in nvcp or in game, leave it at the native refresh rate, do you have triple buffering on? it improves performance with vsync on.  If something is enabled in game, don't enable it in nvcp. Then reverse that and see which one works better.  How far are you away from your TIR Camera? when sitting and playing?  24"-36" is optimal.  I use the TrackClipPro and my camera is on the far left hand side of my monitor.  Watch your head camera on the right corner of your TIR GUI and make sure you don't loose track, or have red reflections.   

 

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/yvtx9qkgh7osb99/Track_IR_Profile-11-28-21.rar/file

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by 352nd_Hoss

[Boosterdog]

6 hours ago, 352nd_Hoss said:

do you have triple buffering on? it improves performance with vsync on.

Triple buffering is not supported in Direct X reliant games on nvidia drivers.  It’s an open gl option. 

[SharpeXB]

13 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

TIR camera works using 60 or 120 Hz.  Its very strict about this. Without the system acheiving one or the other TIR will not appear smooth.

I don’t quite understand why this would be the case. Whatever the TrackIR response rate, it’s not synced to the monitor. It’s basically the equivalent of moving your mouse to look around. I’ve never noticed any stutter from my TrackIR regardless of the frame rate. And moving the view with the TrackIR is essentially how I judge “smoothness” in any game that’s using it. 
I’m also using Fast Vsync in Assetto Corsa Competizione and it’s very smooth. That and DCS are the only games which seem to need it though. 

[SharpeXB]

14 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

TIR camera works using 60 or 120 Hz. 

TrackIR samples at 120 Hz

Vsync on or off isn’t a requirement to run it. Check this topic on the NaturalPoint forums and you might find more answers. I think the stutter the OP is seeing is related to Vsync and not TrackIR

[Boosterdog]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

TrackIR samples at 120 Hz

Vsync on or off isn’t a requirement to run it. Check this topic on the NaturalPoint forums and you might find more answers. I think the stutter the OP is seeing is related to Vsync and not TrackIR

Link?