How to designate ground targets quickly?

[Rongor]

Since 2 weeks I am on the look out to find a solution for this:

Let's assume we are transiting between 2 steerpoints. Now we see some ground targets of opportunity off our flight path - let's say firing artillery in maybe 5 NM in our 10 o'clock.

primary task: secure coordinates of the target's location (to report them to other flights or to come back later with suitable loadout)

secondary task: engage these targets.

 

Whenever I try this, I run into some showstoppers. The interwoven dependencies of the sensors aren't that well documented in the manual so far and even Wags' videos can't demonstrate every combination. The HMCS suffering from the problem that it simply doesn't work for target designation depending on a diffuse and undocumented set of preconditions is the worst part in this topic.

 

How would you solve the situation I described?

 

[MTM]

The HMCS actually does work for designating ground targets. Are you using it in VIS mode? If you tell us the procedure you’re using, maybe we can figure out where you’re getting hung up. 

[Rongor]

I am Winchester and can use guns. Or maybe I find a single Mk82 under my wing. That is all. So there is no VIS mode.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Rongor

[MTM]

It’s not the most intuitive procedure but you can still do it. 
 

A-G Master Mode > select CCRP > ICP button 7 (MARK) > Dobber  switch right (SEQ button) four times (until HUD is selected on the DED) > DMS forward to make the HUD SOI > TMS forward long to make HMCS SOI > look at the target and TMS forward short to ground stabilize > use cursor to make minor adjustments as needed then TMS short again to set the mark point. 
 

If all you have left is the gun, you can still select whatever air-to-ground weapons you had at the start of the mission and the procedure will still work. There’s a minor bug in the system which is why you have to dobber right x 4 to cycle the sensors in the DED. Spudknocker posted a YouTube video on it. 
 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by MTM
Stupid autocorrect!

[Bunny Clark]

It's a bit weird right now without all the A/G features for the HMCS implemented. It works well with Mavs and JDAMs with thier own VIS modes, but with Paveways or dumb bombs it's a bit silly right now. When we get DTOS things will get a lot better in that regard. 

Otherwise, right now you can use the HMCS to set a Markpoint, which would complete your "primary task" of saving the location for later attack. You can then target that Markpoint to attack the target yourself. 

[Dragon1-1]

I believe dropping a markpoint is how it should be done. Do that with HMCS, then attack as if a normal steerpoint. That, or just use CCIP, if you've only got the gun, then you don't need a steerpoint to point it at the targets. That said, drop a markpoint, anyway. If nothing else, the people back at base would likely love to have that artillery marked for a proper strike, rather than just annoying it with your 20mm.

The Viper isn't really that great at engaging TOOs or search and destroy missions for ground targets, for that matter. It can be done, but it's clumsy, and moving targets (armor columns and the like) in particular are tricky.

[QuiGon]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:00 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

The Viper isn't really that great at engaging TOOs or search and destroy missions for ground targets, for that matter. It can be done, but it's clumsy, and moving targets (armor columns and the like) in particular are tricky.

Yeah, the A-10C is still king at that! I'm flying the DCS A-10C for almost 10 years now and it's my benchmark for AG when it comes to assessing new DCS aircraft. In regards to battlefield management capabilities and getting sensors and weapons on target quickly it is still way superior to the Viper, Hornet and all the other aircraft. It's sensor and weapon management is just so much better integrated into the HOTAS and much more methodical than in those other aircraft. I wonder if the Apache or the Strike Eagle will be worthy contenders here.

Edited January 10, 2022 by QuiGon

[Dragon1-1]

It's so much better because when making the A-10C, they went to Hornet, Eaglejet and Viper drivers, and they asked them what they liked and what they didn't like about the HOTAS implementation in their respective aircraft. That's why it got the stick from the Viper and one throttle grip from the Eagle, and why it's pretty much got the best bits from all those aircraft. 

[Hobel]

Is there a way to aim the TGP at a target with the HMD in the DCS F16 or in the real one?

without using the markpoints.

[Crptalk]

28 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Is there a way to aim the TGP at a target with the HMD in the DCS F16 or in the real one?

without using the markpoints.

By caging the target designator to the HMCS in DTOS, VIS and EO VIS submodes.

[Hobel]

Does this mean that the mode does not work without the correct A/G armament?

 

But thanks for the info, it helped me a lot!

[tweet]

If I remember correctly CCIP is considered a visual mode with respect to the HMCS. That doesn't help much if you're carrying CBU-103/105, GBUs, JDAMS, or JASM but is fine for iron bombs/CBUs, Mavs, and the gun. I tend to carry CBU-97 in CCIP or Mavs in VIS with the helmet as SOI when I'm hunting Wabbits...er TOOs. It's still awkward using the helmet. I still don't have a flow down cold.

[Hobel]

With mav or JDAM I tested it yesterday, works fine.  With mk82 however nothing goes no matter in soft mode I am

[twistking]

10 minutes ago, Hobel said:

With mav or JDAM I tested it yesterday, works fine.  With mk82 however nothing goes no matter in soft mode I am

i think dtos mode for dumb bombs will arrive with the next update. this should give us hmcs designation for an ccrp-style attack with mk82, 84 etc.

Edited January 11, 2022 by twistking

[SCPanda]

On 1/11/2022 at 8:24 AM, Hobel said:

Is there a way to aim the TGP at a target with the HMD in the DCS F16 or in the real one?

without using the markpoints.

Fastest and least complex way is just slewing the TGP to where your HMD is looking at, since with HMD AG mode, we can see where the TGP is looking on the HMD (a little square). It literally just takes 5 seconds and using your slew axis to do that. It also works with all weapons or even without any weapons. I don't even bother using markpoints and all that fancy functions, because I found they are slower and take more complex steps to finish. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by SCPanda

[Hobel]

17 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Fastest and least complex way is just slewing the TGP to where your HMD is looking at, since with HMD AG mode, we can see where the TGP is looking on the HMD (a little square). It literally just takes 5 seconds and using your slew axis to do that. It also works with all weapons or even without any weapons. I don't even bother using markpoints and all that fancy functions, because I found they are slower and take more complex steps to finish. 

 

So when I don't have any weapons on, I don't see a TGP square in the HMD?
do you have an example in video form of what you are describing? also I can't yet imagine how the slewing is supposed to be faster than a simple TMS UP.

[DD_fruitbat]

Fastest way will be this, been waiting for DTOS for ages,

 

[EFcrazy]

Agree, looks like DTOS will be the fasted way to designate and deploy A2G weapons.

[SCPanda]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:00 AM, Hobel said:

So when I don't have any weapons on, I don't see a TGP square in the HMD?
do you have an example in video form of what you are describing? also I can't yet imagine how the slewing is supposed to be faster than a simple TMS UP.

Sorry I don't have a video example. You should see your TGP squre on your HMD as long as you are in AG master mode. You cannnot designate your TGP to follow your HMD or designite your TGP to where your HMD is looking at (similar to dropping a markpoing via HMD) using TMS functions. So IMO, the fastest and easiest way is just slewing it. 

On 1/16/2022 at 5:21 AM, DD_fruitbat said:

Fastest way will be this, been waiting for DTOS for ages,

 

Seems like how TGP used to work on the F-16: TMS down to center the TGP to your HUD, but DTOS doesn't center TGP I guess, it centers the cursor and then you can TMS down to command TGP to look at your cursor. 

[Bunny Clark]

4 hours ago, SCPanda said:

You should see your TGP squre on your HMD as long as you are in AG master mode.

The square with the dot in the middle is not a TGP line of sight, it's the symbol for your SPI. But the TGP will slave to your SPI when it isn't setting it, so it will generally be the same.