SDK Light

[Tank50us]

So, seeing all these mods coming down the pipe where the teams really put the work in to make the thing is almost eyewatering.... except... at the end of the day, they're mods, and sadly, as awesome as they are, too many people don't want to touch them with a ten foot pole. But what if there was a way for these smaller teams to have a gateway to 3rd Party Status? A way to prove "Yes, we can deliver", without having to go through a lengthy process. Well, that's where the SDK Light comes in.

The way it could work, in theory, is that ED could offer this version of the SDK (and its learning tools) up at a cost, and part of this would require some hard rules from that point on. Such as:

• The assets must be of your (or your teams) creation.
• The team must make an exterior model, cockpit model, flight model, and damage model.
• All existing AIs and weapons are available (Jester, George, Petro, etc)
• All existing systems (RWRs, radars, T-Pods, etc) are available
• Multi-crew is available
• You won't be able to add your own AI (IE, you can't create a new Jester)
• You won't be able to add your own systems
• You won't have access to the map tools
• You can add weapon variations (you can add leaflet bombs or different versions of the Sidewinder), but not new weapons
• You can add units as needed

Compare that to 3rd Party Devs like Heatblur, Razbam, Leatherneck, etc, who basically get to do just about anything ED can do, within reason (They can create weapons, with EDs approval for example). And just like with the existing 3rd party devs, there's an approval process required for any module created this way to become part of the game. That process would likely be:

• You prove that all of the work has been done by you and your team.
• You submit a test report, and a manual for your module
• ED then has a team go through that test report and manual and verify everything.
• If issues are found, the team is notified and given time to fix the issues.
• if the issues are fixed, or no issues arise at all, the module is priced and put into the game (however if the team decides they want it to be free, ED must honor it)
• After release, the team must keep working on the module to ensure it stays up to date. If issues arise, they must fix the issues, or, failing that, hand the module over to ED for the fix. Failure to do that results in that team being barred from the program, and the module becoming ED property 100%.

The pros of this, if done, would be that now teams who can cook up a module equivalent mod can have the item officially added to the game, provided it passes muster. On top of that, if they can continue delivering high quality modules, they can be offered full 3rd Party status, and given access to the full SDK. The obvious drawback to this, will be our HDDs when these aircraft/helicopters start coming in. But I think we can all agree, it'd be worth it in the end.

[MAXsenna]

Your idea has merit, but I think licensing issues costs, will block this pretty quickly. 

[Tank50us]

29 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Your idea has merit, but I think licensing issues costs, will block this pretty quickly. 

maybe, but some of the teams are doing this for free, and if they set the cost to zero, then they aren't profiting off of some other companies design, ergo, there should be no legal issues. But then again, in this case I think ED has the clout to come in and get the lawyers to back off a bit. 

[MAXsenna]

Just now, Tank50us said:

maybe, but some of the teams are doing this for free, and if they set the cost to zero, then they aren't profiting off of some other companies design, ergo, there should be no legal issues. But then again, in this case I think ED has the clout to come in and get the lawyers to back off a bit. 

Well, if memory serves me right. One of the community projects stranded because of licensing costs. As for becoming a full fledged 3rd party module that is. 

I see and understand where you're going with this. And it would be much more convenient for all to have the modules as part of the core. But I'm pretty sure that ED can't do this, due to licensing. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna come off as negative, but if you've read some of the threads for the community modules. This is usually what stops it first, and how they then cannot be part of the core.  

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

I think ED has the clout to come in and get the lawyers to back off a bit. 

no…

[Tank50us]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

no…

oh look who showed up.... Come to bust a decent idea that could get us more aircraft and items without having to break the game? I notice that, as per the usual with you, you don't offer anything constructive, just laughing at the idea that maybe ED, a company who has obviously navigated the legal mine fields to get the licenses to make these modules in the first place, wouldn't be able to A: Help the teams also looking to make something official navigate those waters, or B: Have the clout to come in an back up the teams when legal issues do come up.

27 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I see and understand where you're going with this. And it would be much more convenient for all to have the modules as part of the core. But I'm pretty sure that ED can't do this, due to licensing. 

I think ED does have the ability, or at least the knowledge of how to get the major companies to fork over the licenses to make the planes. Obviously older aircraft (WW2 or early-mid cold war) get a bit tricky since many of those companies no longer exist, and tracking down who owns the rights now is a hassle, but that isn't impossible, at least in the US. Things get tricky in Europe, Russia and China obviously, but some countries are more open than others (Japan for example), so while it may be difficult, the fee paid by the dev team to get the SDK could be set aside as a legal fund for ED to send in the Mosies with Briefcases to get the license agreements

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Have the clout to come in an back up the teams when legal issues do come up.

Sure… ED is going to pay the legal fees for modders to make free content (not)

Edited January 18, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Tank50us]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure… ED is going to pay the legal fees for modders to make free content (not)

 

except as previously stated, the SDK Light isn't something that's just handed out, a team would have to pay for it, and included in the sale price is the access to the Legal F-15s that ED likely has on retainer anyway. Seriously, do you think that ED doesn't already have its own legal team? Just about any company dealing with game design is going to have a lawyer on speed-dial for a wide range of situations.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

except as previously stated, the SDK Light isn't something that's just handed out, a team would have to pay for it, and included in the sale price is the access to the Legal F-15s that ED likely has on retainer anyway. Seriously, do you think that ED doesn't already have its own legal team? Just about any company dealing with game design is going to have a lawyer on speed-dial for a wide range of situations.

The Legal F-15s? 

I’m sure there’s a straight forward way to become a 3rd party developer. And there’s not an in-between route like you’re trying to imagine. It seems you’re just trying to figure out a way to spam low quality content into the game. 

[Silver_Dragon]

The problem has been the licence fee and some companie can get a "Cease and Desist" if that no follow a acurated road ..... Example: Some teams (and a extint 3rd party) in the past intent build a A-4 as a module, leave the project with the company owner put a "prohitibe" licence fee. Others intent start to build modules as the Tu-22M team and leave them when that convert on a nightmare.

Yes, has good Mods, but jump to a module with none "license aproval" with a company has very problematic to a free team, and ED (remember them has profesional / military contracts) surelly not put your hand on the fire only to a "none license" product.

[Tank50us]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The Legal F-15s? 

Legal (F-15) Eagles

 

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It seems you’re just trying to figure out a way to spam low quality content into the game. 

And I get the feeling you missed the part where it has to go through an approval process before it can become part of the game proper. If someone tries to submit an F-100 Super Saber with less polygons than the LMAC Mirage 2000-5 or Seahawk, and doesn't have a modeled cockpit, then it's more than likely going to get rejected before the ED QA guys even try the flight model. We've seen four teams now that've been able to do work that rivals that of the 3rd Party Devs, but only one has gone on to the road to becoming official (the Hercules), and I'm sure there are more out there who want to make something that is high in quality, but to get it represented correctly, need the SDK, which is locked behind closed doors. This sets that barrier to something that can be surmounted if they can scrounge the upfront fee, albeit with certain caveats. If that team can deliver multiple high quality products, then they have a chance to become official, and get the full SDK. But no team is going to get there if they're submitted half-arsed work that can be done in 30min. And on top of that, there's a chance that they could even get paid for their hard work if they decide to charge for it.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Legal (F-15) Eagles

 

And I get the feeling you missed the part where it has to go through an approval process before it can become part of the game proper. If someone tries to submit an F-100 Super Saber with less polygons than the LMAC Mirage 2000-5 or Seahawk, and doesn't have a modeled cockpit, then it's more than likely going to get rejected before the ED QA guys even try the flight model. We've seen four teams now that've been able to do work that rivals that of the 3rd Party Devs, but only one has gone on to the road to becoming official (the Hercules), and I'm sure there are more out there who want to make something that is high in quality, but to get it represented correctly, need the SDK, which is locked behind closed doors. This sets that barrier to something that can be surmounted if they can scrounge the upfront fee, albeit with certain caveats. If that team can deliver multiple high quality products, then they have a chance to become official, and get the full SDK. But no team is going to get there if they're submitted half-arsed work that can be done in 30min. And on top of that, there's a chance that they could even get paid for their hard work if they decide to charge for it.

If anyone wants to be an actual 3rd party Dev then they can do that, provided they have the ability. People who are modders are likely doing this as a hobby just for fun and don’t want the pressure of having actual customers. 

[Mars Exulte]

This is one of the most tired topics around these forums unfortunately, and in many cases addressed by devs themselves in their own FAQs (which as we all know, nobody ever reads).

 

Setting aside all other issues and focusing on the mod specific issues, we'll use the A-4 as our example (also something directly addressed by them multiple times). The reason mods are often not suitable for absorption AT ALL is most of them are collaborations by anywhere from several to dozens of people over years, not all of whom remain active on the project. It is not up to simply the current team, ED, or McD. It is ALSO up to EVERYONE WHO EVER WORKED ON IT, because otherwise you're stealing someone else's work. To do it LEGALLY requires permission from ALL involved parties, which after YEARS of development and DOZENS of contributors is a near impossibility to acquire.

For the 9,000,000th time, there is no easy way to simply gobble up mods without a lot of additional groundwork, that's why NOBODY ANYWHERE DOES IT. The examples of mods being absorbed into a game involve single or small groups where it was feasible to actually meet all the legal requirements. Being ''free'' doesn't change that.

There is no magic loophole nobody ever thought of. Mods are inherently often not suitable for integration into a commercial product  in cases where they are, there is usually a pipeline for people to submit their work and certain ''boxes that have to be ticked''. Those ''annoying procedures harshing your buzz'' are there for a reason.

 

[MAXsenna]

@Tank50us

You forgot about the MB-339, and that one and the A-4E-C pretty much proves Mars' points. However sad it might be. 

Why don't you read through the different A-4E-C threads, and you'll get an idea of how it works. And maybe you can somehow alter your initial idea for something better that's feasible, 'cause I'm all for initiative. 

Cheers! 

[Tank50us]

Alright, side topic related to this, what if ED opened up a Community Contributor Program, where people can submit potential assets to ED for use in DCS. It can be anything from a simple box to a rack of Hellfires, to entire AI assets. We all know that ED has a laundry list of things they want to add to the game, but only so much time to work on any of them. Would something like that work?

[razo+r]

We can already submit assets to them if we want.

[Mars Exulte]

Already been happening all along. At least some of the AI assets were created by the community.

[upyr1]

I'd love to see an SDK light for the mod builders. I think any licencing costs with aircraft manufacturers would be an issue the mod team would have to face on their own, but as the idea is to develop free mods, that might not be that bad of a problem. I think it would help get more people developing for DCS which would be a good thing. 

[Tank50us]

2 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I'd love to see an SDK light for the mod builders. I think any licencing costs with aircraft manufacturers would be an issue the mod team would have to face on their own, but as the idea is to develop free mods, that might not be that bad of a problem. I think it would help get more people developing for DCS which would be a good thing. 

Especially if we're talking about the some of the more niche aircraft and helicopters. Sure, most of the big companies may ignore some random fighter jet from Eastern Europe that barely had a dozen or so frames built (not trying to be specific here btw), but someone who flew that aircraft, or someone who just absolutely loves it, might take a shot at putting it into DCS. And if people think that that's ridiculous... well... just remember there have been more Su33s purchased in DCS than ever existed in the real world.

[Mars Exulte]

5 hours ago, Tank50us said:

purchased in DCS than ever existed in the real world.

  That could be said about literally everything in the game @@

[upyr1]

11 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Especially if we're talking about the some of the more niche aircraft and helicopters. Sure, most of the big companies may ignore some random fighter jet from Eastern Europe that barely had a dozen or so frames built (not trying to be specific here btw), but someone who flew that aircraft, or someone who just absolutely loves it, might take a shot at putting it into DCS. And if people think that that's ridiculous... well... just remember there have been more Su33s purchased in DCS than ever existed in the real world.

I also think this would be good for what ifs too

[Tank50us]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

I also think this would be good for what ifs too

or even aircraft that entered competitions and lost, like the F-20 or YF-23

[upyr1]

23 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

or even aircraft that entered competitions and lost, like the F-20 or YF-23

I'd imagine the F-20 mod would be closer to the viper and hornet we have than the real YF-20 prototype.  Also I'd expect to see AC built on pure speculation. Such as a Su-35 franken flanker. There is now way we'll get official modern red air but a good mod might fill the gap

Edited February 10, 2022 by upyr1