Best DCS helicopter to train for the Apache

[Mr.Scar]

16 hours ago, Razgriz27 said:

Thanks for all the suggestions. I tried the Huey and liked it so much that when the free trial expired yesterday I ended up buying it in the lunar sale. It was a little difficult at first but I'm slowly getting the hang of it. Since the apache was delayed again I'll have even more time to practice and when it finally comes out I'll at least know the basics of flying it.

Good choice and welcome to the rotor head world, where crazy is our trademark  I don't know if you considered it already, but a few tips if you don't mind:

1. If possible, get rudder pedals. The twist on the stick can do the job, but will make your wrist tired on the huey.

2. If you have something similar to a FCS 16000 Thrustmaster throttle and stick, you can bind the rudder on the rocker axis (that big black plank that is moving left and right) i use this and find it quite comfortable. It is even more comfortable to use when a helicopter has flight stabilisation systems, but nothing beats rudder pedals in the end. 

3. Always pay attention to the torque, be it by eye on the gauge or by listening to the engine/airframe sounds. If you get red on the gauge, and pull the collective too hard, you might experience your rotor blades getting a life of their own and flying somewhere in front of you.

4. Practice low level hovering, it is the most tiresome aspect in the huey but will give you a lot of experience regarding rudder pedal, collective and stick sensivity, as well as general flight characteristics. When hovering, try to fix your sight on one particular point in the distance (tree, building, wathever) when navigating the huey you will be using a lot of landmarks and its a good idea to be able to focus on one to keep the course correct.

5. When you see from the cockpit perspective that everything is wobbly when doing manoeuvres at high speeds, don't worry. From a spectator point of view you are looking great.

6. VRS (Vortex Ring State) happens when you are too slow while trying to land, you need to feel the moment and speed depending on the weight to slide. But when you feel VRS is catching you (wobbly and shaky helo at minimal speed) pull a bit harder on the collective to compensate and don`t crash into the ground. It will take time, but you will get there.

7.  Most importantly, have fun!

 

My advice might not be perfect, since there are more experienced rotorheads out there, but those are the things I have learned, so I hope it helps.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Mr.Scar

[Lurker]

Just to throw in my 2c, yeah I think the Huey is a great choice. It was my first helo in DCS too (to be fair at the time it was the only one that was available) and it was huge pain to learn, but it taught me the basic skills needed to fly all Helos. 

[Mad Dog 762]

The best heli to train for the Apache in would be......drum roll please.....the Apache!  

[Sinclair_76]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:08 PM, MAXsenna said:

The UH-60 free module was just released too.  

I had to install it because the outfit I fly with had mission that required it. I gave it a spin. I spinned the crap out of it for hours. An absolute blast. Zipping through the trees minding the tail while maneuvering. 90/180 quickstops, sliding, nosing over and levelling after ETL. Everything just feels natural. I can't compare it to anything else so far, it's my only spin wing module so far. Flying the blackhawk only heightens the anticipation for the big rig. 

edit that being said I don't need any left rudder picking up the aircraft to a hover. Is the SAS on the hawk that good? O

Edited February 9, 2022 by Sinclair_76

[kgillers3]

5 hours ago, Sinclair_76 said:

spin wing 

edit that being said I don't need any left rudder picking up the aircraft to a hover. Is the SAS on the hawk that good? O

 

I'm taking spin wing, I can't wait to start saying that everywhere I go. 

So I'm not a hawk guy so take this with a grain of salt and as hearsay.  Talking with a couple a/l guys, the hawk has a mechanical mixer unit that aides with some of the required pedal input based off of collective input, then the heading hold fills in the rest, apparently it's pretty good. So I guess maybe, I ended up flying it similar to how I fly the apache get it trimmed up, then pressure counter pressure afterwords.  In the actual hawk there are little switches on the pedals which are force trim release for the pedals themselves that activate when you put pressure on the pedal where the apache uses breakout values from pedal displacement.  Which is kinda how the hawk flies in dcs because they couldn't model the little switches.  My understanding is once it's trimmed up you leave it. So long story short, I think it's probably close from what I've heard. 

I hope this helps

[skins45]

You don't need to prepare specifically for the Apache because it's pretty different from anything we currently have.  You need to get used to the physics and mechanics of helicopters in general.  As such, I think the most accurate (non-computer aided) representation is the UH-1.  The KA-50 is okay for systems, but still, not really because it's like comparing apples to oranges as far as system integrations; especially considering the fact that the crew interaction is VERY different (pssssttt.... there's 2 people in the aircraft!)

 

You don't have enough time to get proficient in too terribly much, so go ahead and work on takeoff/landing the Huey, and maybe work on some VRS recoveries.  You will be fine.

[Dscross]

personally, I'm using the Gazelle M. Now hold on, I know there are people who despise it, let me explain. First there are several versions of the SA342 and all have a digital fly by wire control system, as does the AH64 and KA50 (In simplistic terms, don't get all "well actually"). 

Next, the SA342 has a good sighting sighting system, specifically the Vivian on SA342M. This makes it useful in training to fly from hover to pop up behind cover, finding cover, etc. all of those will be good skills in the AH64. As any of us who fly helos in DCS know, the world looks much different at 50 feet than it does from 30,000. what looks perfectly flat from 30,000 through a TGP, in reality has knolls, undulations, trees, shallow valley's etc. Anyone who is already flying a helo in DCS will be way ahead in the skill of reading the ground and calculating targeting approaches. I use the SA342 for this because the Huey simply isn't as stable and requires constant force trimming and such. (it's a mechanical linkage helo, it takes work.) 

The sa342 gazelle for me is just a joy to fly. I own the Huey, and I fly it, but I don't enjoy it as much. I test flew the Hind, and it was fine, but didn't excite me much. To me the SA342 is more fun to fly than the hind. 

Now there are some problems with the Gazelle, in fact, big ones. I can't understand how Eagle Dynamics is allow the module to stay in the store in the broken state it is in. How can they even keep selling it when it's in the state it is? Specifically, the SA342 mini gun version is only good for flying as the weapons don't work, and multi crew doesn't work either. But Poloychop has "promised" to fix it after they release the Oh-58. Bad idea if you ask me, as they should fix what they have first, at least a band aide for the time being, but that's just me. While those are huge negatives, as someone who is looking for a trainer helo, it won't really be a problem for you. The mini gun version still flies, and it's fun to fly. It doesn't have doors, or a big sighting system so the visibility is great. It you are looking to practice shipboard landings there isn't a much better helo than the SA342 minigun verson because the visibility is so good. 

Some people will say that the SA342 flight model is "broken" Okay... But I haven't heard a real Gazelle Pilot say that. (I've heard "its' not perfect..." but that's very different) I hated, HATED!, the Gazelle until I watched a CasmoTV video on axis tuning for it. WOW! I tuned mine a little different but watch that video and tune your gazelle if you've given up on it, it's a whole new helocopter, and amazingly fun to fly. Here is the link to that video. (And Thanks, Casmo! you made me love my Gazelle!) Anyway, I fly the Gazelle while I wait for the Ah-64, and I'll still fly the Gazelle after the Ah-64 because it's a fun, agile little scout / light Anti-tank helicopter. 

 (

[NeedzWD40]

4 hours ago, Dscross said:

But I haven't heard a real Gazelle Pilot say that.

Uh... Off tangent, but there have been several. Let's not rehash all that here, however.

Gazelle is a poor choice simply because the flight model will teach very bad habits. The systems are reasonably accurate, but they're so different from an AH-64 that it won't really do much good to practice with the Gazelle. There's far more similarity with the Ka-50 in both flight and systems than the Gazelle.

[Dscross]

The Ka50 is a prototype that never saw serial production, so while many, many people, including civilian owners can debate the merits of the Gazelle, the DCS KA50 is a figment of the imaginations of Eagle Dynamics programmers...if we're talking about realism. 

 The comparison is like saying that the best trainer for the F-15 E Strike Eagle will be the Su-47. No, not at all. Sure, twin engine heavy fighters, but the design concepts are completely different, the systems are different, hell even the radios won't work the same way. (And one is only a limited flight-testing prototype that hardly anyone has ever flown and never got operational weapons certified...) 

No other helicopter will teach someone to run an AH-64...except and AH-64. Learning a complex system...in order to learn a completely different and very complex system doesn't make much sense to me, but that's just me.  

Realism... ha. Next they'll make a YF-23 and we can argue about all the redacted "expert" opinions of the like 4 test pilots that ever flew it. "realism"... lol. 

 

[NeedzWD40]

37 minutes ago, Dscross said:

The Ka50 is a prototype that never saw serial production, so while many, many people, including civilian owners can debate the merits of the Gazelle, the DCS KA50 is a figment of the imaginations of Eagle Dynamics programmers...if we're talking about realism. 

That figment is currently the most modern depiction of an attack helicopter within the game. Otherwise, I'd be recommending the Mi-24, but that one loses out simply because the systems are even more unlike the AH-64's.

38 minutes ago, Dscross said:

The comparison is like saying that the best trainer for the F-15 E Strike Eagle will be the Su-47.

It's based on what we have available within the game. If our choices for preparing for an F-15E were the Su-47 or a P-38, then the Su-47 is going to be a hell of a lot closer than the P-38 is. Fortunately for the F-15E, we have aircraft like the F-16C and F-14 available. Unfortunately for the AH-64, our official options are UH-1, Gazelle, Ka-50, Mi-8, and Mi-24. That's kind of slim, but for learning basic flight it's hard to beat the UH-1. The next closest attack-wise is the Ka-50 and the workflow in terms of how it operates is very similar.

Unofficially, I find the UH-60 a very good option, especially in version 1.1. I would recommend that one over the Gazelle for any beginner.

44 minutes ago, Dscross said:

No other helicopter will teach someone to run an AH-64...except and AH-64.

Not going to make any claims of being a real helicopter pilot, but I do know a few (and they are military pilots, by the way). The general agreement is that the Ka-50, while being inferior to an AH-1F, is close enough to check the block. They've also told me it's very important to get the basics down first.

The Gazelle is tricky to fly with a very weird flight model and systems that support a very different workflow than a typical attack helicopter. I don't have any regrets from purchasing it (outside of broken multicrew), but it's at the absolute bottom of my recommended list for good reason.

[kgillers3]

40 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

 

 but I do know a few (and they are military pilots, by the way). The general agreement is that the Ka-50, while being inferior to an AH-1F, is close enough to check the block.
 

They've also told me it's very important to get the basics down first.

 

Weird, I recommended 60 or uh 1. So I guess I don’t fall into the general status but everyone has their own opinions. 

but basics are important.

1 hour ago, Dscross said:

 

No other helicopter will teach someone to run an AH-64...except and AH-64. Learning a complex system...in order to learn a completely different and very complex system doesn't make much sense to me, but that's just me.  

. 

 

Well… majority of military pilots to include fixed wing usually train and learn the basics on training aircraft before moving to their advanced or final platform. It’s the same for all us army pilots. 
 

the systems change sure, but an auto is an auto and etl is etl. 
 

to be clear, for dcs if someone wants to start from scratch in the 64 there’s nothing wrong with that. I disagree with the gazelle but that’s my opinion, the ka50 for similar concept, sure but I think for flying the uh60 mod is good or the uh1. I think if someone goes along that approach they’ll be able to focus more on how to use the systems and less of flying into a tree or slamming into the ground on short final.  Fine tuning your heli controls and how you like them.
 

 Again if someone starts with the Apache it’s easy enough once you understand what you’re looking at and a few crashes later you’ll be doing fine, maybe a bit tougher if you can’t fly a heli to begin with, but nothing wrong with learning and starting with it. It’ll be fun regardless

the original poster as I understand it has made their choice so this is mostly for the peeps checkin out the drama as I stir the pot a bit. 

[pii]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:57 AM, Razgriz27 said:

Hey guys, the Apache will be my first helicopter in DCS. Actually, it will be the first helicopter that I'll fly in a flight sim in general (I usually only fly planes). So naturally I'll have to learn everything from the beginning, not only the systems but basic helicopter controls and handling.

With that in mind I was thinking of using one of the DCS choppers available in the 2 week free trial to start learning basic helicopter flying (until the Apache releases of course). However which DCS helicopter would be most suitable to learn for a later transition to the apache? I ask this because I suspect that every helicopter have different characteristics depending on its weight, power, rotor direction etc.

Thanks for your help.

First DCS, or any, Helo you say? You are in for a BIG Surprise.  Prepare to spin like a top.

Black Shark has lots of Auto Pilot modes you may find useful and its a very cool helo, probably a lot closer to the AH64 than the uh1 .

Good Luck!

Edited February 17, 2022 by pii

[Grennymaster]

Well, the AH 64 is a beasty much to learn looooots of systems to mange beside flying f in low .)

For your training:

If you don´t whant to spend any money, give the UH 60 a try. Its very very nice for a free mod there you can get a feeling for what is needet to get a Helo in the air and save back on the groud.

If you are willing to spend Money, check the KA 50 out. Its nice to fly, and you have a few systems to mange beside flying the bird. Think this will "prepare" you as good as possible for the Apache.

BUT there is no optimal Training Helo for the Apache its to different in therms of Systems.

If you have any questions, let us know, im sure the community is very willing to help a new member of the Helo famyli

[Dragon1-1]

I wouldn't say Ka-50 is anything like Apache, it's no closer than the Mi-24, but lies in a different direction. The biggest thing is probably the autopilot - you don't really fly Ka-50, it flies you, at least unless you enjoy fighting it the whole time. Apache is still flown like a normal helo, just with flight assists. Weapons and countermeasures are all different, tactics are different, too. Besides rocket attacks, neither the gun nor the ATGMs have much in common with what can be carried on the Apache. The ABRIS MFD is a strange beast, and its datalink is quite limited compared to what the Apache can use. Ka-50 is awesome, but it's also practically unique in most aspects.