cannot reproduce MAV PRE does not handoff in TGP AUTO

[vctpil]

Hi,

Tha Maverick handoff with the TGP in AUTO does not work for me, despite following this video : 

 

1. Hot start on ramp

2. Boresight of Mavericks on ground in PRE mode

3. In flight, target tracked with TGP in AUTO when in MAV range

4. The handoff message appears on the MAV page and the Maverick is aligned exactly with the target, but the Maverick is not tracking the target

5. If I select the MAV page in SOI and press TMS up, the MAV page is tracking the target and I can fire the missile

What am I missing for the handoff to work properly in AUTO mode and the MAV to track the target? I tried with all version os Maverick and differents range, but I have never had the auto tracking of the target.

Thanks,

Vincent

[SCPanda]

25 minutes ago, vctpil said:

Hi,

Tha Maverick handoff with the TGP in AUTO does not work for me, despite following this video : 

 

1. Hot start on ramp

2. Boresight of Mavericks on ground in PRE mode

3. In flight, target tracked with TGP in AUTO when in MAV range

4. The handoff message appears on the MAV page and the Maverick is aligned exactly with the target, but the Maverick is not tracking the target

5. If I select the MAV page in SOI and press TMS up, the MAV page is tracking the target and I can fire the missile

What am I missing for the handoff to work properly in AUTO mode and the MAV to track the target? I tried with all version os Maverick and differents range, but I have never had the auto tracking of the target.

Thanks,

Vincent

I can cofirm I have experienced this issue as well. Mav page indicates it's locked onto the target(Mav crosshair on target and shaking). Fire the missile, the missile doesn't track and flies elsewhere. 

If you could post a track, I think ED could take a look. Sorry I don't have a track atm. 

[vctpil]

I try already, but the time the TPOD and the MAV are available, the track is beyond the forum limit.

My problem is slightly different, the MAV crosshair does not shake.

Edited January 23, 2022 by vctpil

[Machalot]

I read somewhere else that auto is not working.  Sorry this is not directly helpful but at least hints that it might not be your issue. 

[Frederf]

It works but with some odd behavior that makes it difficult. Make sure you're using AGM-65D/G. It won't work in H/K. It absolutely will work if done exactly right.

[MadKreator]

Ive noticed that even if everything is within gimbal limits, if I’m not aiming the jet towards the target (like the mav seeker needing to be within the “keyhole”) even when using the tgp, the maverick rarely tracks correctly. I can acquire target with tgp,  handoff, mav will track and correlate but when I fire it seems that It won’t hit as intended if I don’t roll in and get the nose of the aircraft towards the target. Using 65D’s 99% of the time. If the handoff is not correlating you need to do ( TGP SOI) TMS aft then TMS fwd quickly to break and reacquire target to resend the handoff. TMS right I believe will just resend the handoff but Ive never got that to work always have to break lock and re lock quickly. You should end up with a C above the station number for correlate. Sometimes it takes a few tries for it to do that, not sure if that is a bug or the mav seeker just trying to really make sure its locking what you want. Sometime It will work great at 9 miles and sometime wont lock until right up on a target. Altitude can play a role in it too in my experience. The higher you are the more inconsistent it seems to be. Also very inconsistent if you’re too close, like under a mile. But regardless, once that correlation is acquired and mav is ready to fire I’ve learned to nose in on the target, fire, then wait a second or two before I turn and burn. Most of the time It will hit where its supposed to… not  always. I’ve flung a full load of mavericks at multiple targets and had only one hit where its supposed to. Other times I can nail all 6 in one run. Not really sure what or where the logic in that is, but it seems to do better with the jet pointed at target when firing. 

If mavs are boresighted and kept in PRE mode, you should never have to  make the mav page SOI. Everything done from TGP. TMS aft, TMS fwd, repeat,repeat until you get correlation. Intended operation or bug? I’m not sure but that’s what I’ve learned to do. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by MadKreator

[SCPanda]

10 hours ago, MadKreator said:

Ive noticed that even if everything is within gimbal limits, if I’m not aiming the jet towards the target (like the mav seeker needing to be within the “keyhole”) even when using the tgp, the maverick rarely tracks correctly. I can acquire target with tgp,  handoff, mav will track and correlate but when I fire it seems that It won’t hit as intended if I don’t roll in and get the nose of the aircraft towards the target. Using 65D’s 99% of the time. If the handoff is not correlating you need to do ( TGP SOI) TMS aft then TMS fwd quickly to break and reacquire target to resend the handoff. TMS right I believe will just resend the handoff but Ive never got that to work always have to break lock and re lock quickly. You should end up with a C above the station number for correlate. Sometimes it takes a few tries for it to do that, not sure if that is a bug or the mav seeker just trying to really make sure its locking what you want. Sometime It will work great at 9 miles and sometime wont lock until right up on a target. Altitude can play a role in it too in my experience. The higher you are the more inconsistent it seems to be. Also very inconsistent if you’re too close, like under a mile. But regardless, once that correlation is acquired and mav is ready to fire I’ve learned to nose in on the target, fire, then wait a second or two before I turn and burn. Most of the time It will hit where its supposed to… not  always. I’ve flung a full load of mavericks at multiple targets and had only one hit where its supposed to. Other times I can nail all 6 in one run. Not really sure what or where the logic in that is, but it seems to do better with the jet pointed at target when firing. 

If mavs are boresighted and kept in PRE mode, you should never have to  make the mav page SOI. Everything done from TGP. TMS aft, TMS fwd, repeat,repeat until you get correlation. Intended operation or bug? I’m not sure but that’s what I’ve learned to do. 

 

Exactly what I have been experiencing. I think this is a bug. 

The only reliable MAV mode now is Bore. 

[vctpil]

Hi,

Finally, the handoff function is working. Thanks to the new Chuck's guide, that give some more details about the procedure. Just tested once, but it is working.

Vincent

[Machalot]

4 hours ago, vctpil said:

Hi,

Finally, the handoff function is working. Thanks to the new Chuck's guide, that give some more details about the procedure. Just tested once, but it is working.

Vincent

Glad to hear. What was the key point you were missing? 

[AstonMartinDBS]

8 hours ago, vctpil said:

Finally, the handoff function is working. Thanks to the new Chuck's guide, that give some more details about the procedure.

Thank you for the reference to Chuck's F-16C guide!

After studying the steps in section 2.6.3 I've finally managed to get a successful auto hand-off and deliver an AGM-65D onto a moving target.

 

4 hours ago, Machalot said:

What was the key point you were missing? 

My previous main errors were:

• distance of hand-off attempt > 8 nm
• MAV FOV not set to narrow
• I tried to hand-off by pressing TMS fwd long (instead TMS fwd short) - cannot remember which tutorial was the origin of this wrong information

 

I've attached my simple MAV training mission for Syria with some moving targets (vehicle convoy) on the road near STPT 1.

F-16C AGM-65 hand-off training.miz

[vctpil]

23 hours ago, Machalot said:

Glad to hear. What was the key point you were missing? 

The problems was :

1. I tried to handoff with all version of the Maverick, but only works with the IR version

2. I tried to handoff too early, within 7nm, but that work better around 5nm

I made another test, pointing the target earlier around 20nm then using the TMS right short around 5nm to force another handoff, and the target is locking on the MAV page perfectly.

[Carbon715]

Yeah better to do a manual handoff in area track on CCD

[Machalot]

4 hours ago, vctpil said:

I made another test, pointing the target earlier around 20nm then using the TMS right short around 5nm to force another handoff, and the target is locking on the MAV page perfectly.

Did this require you to break lock on the MAV page (SOI to weapon, TMS down)?  For me it seems like if the first handoff fails, the MAV goes into a break lock mode and I can't just TMS right on TGP to reattempt the handoff.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Machalot

[Frederf]

Pay attention to the latter above the station number on the WPN format. S means slave, T I don't know, C is handoff complete, I in progressive.

Yes a lot of failed handoffs are "T" which has to be corrected back to "S" before handing off.

As far as I'm aware TGP has to be in IIR and missile has to be IIR type too and correct polarity because the image matching part of handoff needs to compare IIR images.

[vctpil]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:13 PM, Machalot said:

Did this require you to break lock on the MAV page (SOI to weapon, TMS down)?  For me it seems like if the first handoff fails, the MAV goes into a break lock mode and I can't just TMS right on TGP to reattempt the handoff.

 

There was no lock from the Maverick initially. Here's the process :

1. Lock the target with the TGP at 20-25nm. The system try to handoff without result of course.

2. Around 6nm from the target, TMS right short to force a handoff, and the target lock on the WPN page

[Dannyvandelft]

If for some reason the missile won't lock, hit the missile step button and try another hand-off.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[MadKreator]

On 1/27/2022 at 10:13 AM, Machalot said:

Did this require you to break lock on the MAV page (SOI to weapon, TMS down)?  For me it seems like if the first handoff fails, the MAV goes into a break lock mode and I can't just TMS right on TGP to reattempt the handoff.

 

I have never had luck with tms right to re-handoff.. I always stay on tgp soi and tms aft then fwd quickly to break and reacquire, sometimes it takes a few tries still

[CoconutCockpit]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:22 PM, Frederf said:

As far as I'm aware TGP has to be in IIR and missile has to be IIR type too and correct polarity because the image matching part of handoff needs to compare IIR images.

Has anyone confirmed tested this already? I think this might explain the "it works sometimes, but not all the time" feeling a lot of us have.