Freetrack in English version?

[MadTommy]

In response to above:

 

1. TrackIR is not patented.

 

Ok, my mistake i though it was..

 

They have claimed to use 'patented math' for 6DOF motion tracking, which they call Vector, and for view-relative transformation, which they call TrueView[9] [10] but do not have such a patent.

 

But i do think your other points are ridiculous.. Natural Point wont allow ED to do something.. what are you on about?

___

Originally Posted by MadTommy

Not everything in life is free. If you don't want to or cant afford a product don't buy it...bitching wont help

Rigth. And not everything more expensive is worth its price ;)

 

too true :)

Edited December 12, 2008 by MadTommy

[the_soupdragon]

But i do think your other points are ridiculous.. Natural Point wont allow ED to do something.. what are you on about?

 

check out point 3 in the post above yours

 

SD

[qrazi]

2. Have you seen Glide? It's huge, nobody dared to reverse engineer it, and x86 is patented. The only protection the TrackIR interface has is an NDA.

3. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=33510

4. All head tracking solutions have the right to compete at a game interface level if they so choose.

 

If the wikipedia page holds any truth, shame on NP....

[Mugatu]

Quit your jibber jabber fools :P Think I'm gunna sue you all for giving me a headache!!

 

Where's my trackir discount button when I purchase the online version if we're locked into it btw?

[sobek]

ED could implement FreeTracks own interface, thus bypassing any legal complaints by NP. I actually don't understand, why they didn' do it in the first place, since a growing number of users is going for FreeTrack.

[Mugatu]

Yeah why did they use directx?

[sobek]

Yeah why did they use directx?

 

I did not say they should stop supporting TrackIR if i that's what you mean.

[DiabloSP]

Well, if Freetrack on BS is using the Naturalpoint interface, I see they have the right to get it out.

 

But my point was not complaining about them getting it out, rather than complain about their attitude towards the market.

 

Freetrack is, in general, for people that don't have or want to spend the 180$ for the full TIR setup. They (we) won't ever buy that fancy looking ir webcam for that price. I can perfectly play BS with the hat on my hotas. In fact I have done it and it's not that bad at all, this is not a jet fighter, you won't be looking backwards often.

 

On the other side, if you want the best of the best, and you have the money, you will always buy the TIR, no matter what. You won't spend time tinkering with webcams, IR filters, setups, leds or whatever FT needs.

 

I don't get what NP is gaining by being bullish, and pointed the fact that they may be loosing sales on the 3 point clip that is compatible with FT, and may be the only price/quality competitive product they have on the market today.

[Havner]

I did not say they should stop supporting TrackIR if i that's what you mean.

 

But they can't support both. NP monopoly goes as far as linked above. They won't allow any other headtracking interface. They probably told ED:

 

"we allow you to support TIR _only_ if you won't implement any other interface, and look at the market share, decide, muhahahaha".

 

I own TIR, and after reading all this I sincerely regret I bought one (although I did that long time ago, when there was no such controversy)

[sobek]

But they can't support both. NP monopoly goes as far as linked above. They won't allow any other headtracking interface. They probably told ED:

 

"we allow you to support TIR _only_ if you won't implement any other interface, and look at the market share, decide, muhahahaha".

 

I own TIR, and after reading all this I sincerely regret I bought one (although I did that long time ago, when there was no such controversy)

 

 

Whoa, i missed that post. Well screw me, that is some bold move (in a negative way). Nevertheless i stay confident that with their current policy and pricing, NP will be forced out of the market, lobby this, lobby that. Btw. there should be a poll on who uses what tracking device.

Edited December 12, 2008 by sobek

[Havner]

Btw. there should be a poll on who uses what tracking device.

 

There was, FreeTrack lost all the way.

 

EDIT: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=33780

 

EDIT2: And BTW, as long as protecting their work is normal and to be expected as far as headtracking technology is not patented it can go as far as not allowing others to use their API. But forbiding to implement any other product is non fair competition. And links that Quarrion pasted here are fully understandable here. If I lived in US I'd make good use of them. I'm really surprised that ED accepted this NP ramp.

How'd you feel if you could use joysticks only manufactured by Saitek and none made by CH? It's exactly the same situation. As long as none of these companies holds patent rights to joystick itself (not to mention that patents on such things are bad for free market).

Edited December 12, 2008 by Havner

[Doggy]

Almost 25%. I think ED would be very happy to increase the western release sales by 25%...

[sobek]

There was, FreeTrack lost all the way.

 

[...]

 

EDIT2: [...]

 

25% is not all that bad when looking at how long both products have been around. Also FreeTrack has only recently achieved a level of tracking smotheness that is really able to compete with TrackIR.

 

ad Edit2: I cannot see how people interpret this as NP protecting their own property when FreeTrack does not infringe any copyrights by using the NP interface, even less when they use their own interface. This is just shameless lobbyism/monopolism. Your comparison to joysticks is so utterly true, it makes me want to smash my head against the table. :doh:

[ZaltysZ]

It is possible to look at analogy with joysticks from different perspective... Maybe CH is as evil as NP, because CH programming software works only with CH joysticks and they won't change that? Probably they will even sue anyone who hacks it to be used with any joystick.. It is their right to protect their own product (or part of it).

 

NP sells TrackIR to players and gives API to qualified developers for free if they sign NDA. You won't get this API without signing NDA; and when you sign, you are legally bound not to share it with anyone in any form. That NDA does protect API, but doesn't protect from getting interface by reverse engineering, that is why NP implimented encryption in latest versions. That encryption is their way to make sure their software (particulary: API dll) is used only with their devices.

 

I don't know anything about any requerements of not implementing support for different trackers, if one wants to get and use API from NP. This depends on what is written inside signed documents; and we don't know that. Anyway some of you are making conclusions based on citation of NP request (request != demand) to cancel "HeadTracker" interface without full picture which is only known to ED and NP.

[asso]

Every joystick has standard software interface, that's why every joystick works in every game. For now there is no standard for head tracking devices software interface. We were going to add vendor-independent SDK in English release to allow every head tracking vendor (including FreeTrack) implement support of their devices for BlackShark. SDK has been removed from English release because of NaturalPoint request. Now we make agreement with NaturalPoint and we will release 3DOF version of our head tracking SDK soon.

[sobek]

Every joystick has standard software interface, that's why every joystick works in every game. For now there is no standard for head tracking devices software interface. We were going to add vendor-independent SDK in English release to allow every head tracking vendor (including FreeTrack) implement support of their devices for BlackShark. SDK has been removed from English release because of NaturalPoint request. Now we make agreement with NaturalPoint and we will release 3DOF version of our head tracking SDK soon.

 

That's a start, thank you for your comment.

[qrazi]

When I read

Implementation of the "HeadTracker" interface is canceled at the request of NaturalPoint.

, then I read that a generic HeadTracker interface, to be used with any device that can communicate with that interface, is canceled at the request of NP. That leaves only NP's TIR, joystick hat, keyboard and mouse to look around with.

 

It is understandable that NP makes the request, but as to why ED has complied with it is another matter. Perhaps it is indeed included in the NDA?

 

edit: Just read the reply from asso. I guess there will be at least some form of FreeTrack support. That'll be better then joystick hat I guess... :)

 

Asso: could you maybe give more details why NP requested the original intended interface to be removed? Or have you said what can be said and rest is classified?

Edited December 12, 2008 by qrazi

[Havner]

Now we make agreement with NaturalPoint and we will release 3DOF version of our head tracking SDK soon.

 

Thank you for clarifying but as long as it's a start (of some sort) it still falls under non fair competition. Deliberately forbidding or limiting (in this case) your comptetition.

 

So we got to the point where saitek HOTAS is working but for CH HOTAS only the stick works, throttle does not.

 

It is understandable that NP makes the request, but as to why ED has complied with it is another matter. Perhaps it is indeed included in the NDA?

 

This is NOT understandable why NP makes request that concerns something they have NO legal rights to (non existant headtracking patent and APIs they didn't invent)

 

Asso: could you maybe give more details why NP requested the original intended interface to be removed? Or have you said what can be said and rest is classified?

 

I can't think of any other reason beside non fair competition from NP. They want their product to be the only fully functional not by free market rules but by deliberately killing support for their competition in such products as DCS. Unless I wont hear a better reason this qualifies to be reported to companies that guard free market rules.

[Doggy]

3DOF(= freetrack's PPjoy) = still stick with RU version

why? Who would like to pay another $50 for something that will not work as nice as the one priced at $25.

 

Anyway I do appreciate ED's effort to find a compromise (not a joke)

[qrazi]

 

This is NOT understandable why NP makes request that concerns something they have NO legal rights to (non existant headtracking patent and APIs they didn't invent)

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say or mean I agree with NP's request, it is just not that surprising seeing a company trying to hold on to its market share by any means necessary.

[congo]

Originally Posted by asso

Every joystick has standard software interface, that's why every joystick works in every game. For now there is no standard for head tracking devices software interface. We were going to add vendor-independent SDK in English release to allow every head tracking vendor (including FreeTrack) implement support of their devices for BlackShark. SDK has been removed from English release because of NaturalPoint request. Now we make agreement with NaturalPoint and we will release 3DOF version of our head tracking SDK soon.

That's a start, thank you for your comment. This is definitely good news. Any idea how soon this may happen

[Nayles]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say or mean I agree with NP's request, it is just not that surprising seeing a company trying to hold on to its market share by any means necessary.

 

NP aren't doing this to hold onto their market share but rather increase their share to the point where they monopolise the market.

 

And the consumer always suffers in a monopolised market place.

 

There is a danger that ED will suffer also.

 

It will be interesting to see whether or not this becomes common to all new simulation titles wishing to implement 6DO head tracking.

 

I think only severe lobbying from both software developers (such as ED) and NP customers is likely to make NP change their tune. Or better yet non-compliance from software developers and a boycott of NP products by the flight sim community.

[Boberro]

Hehhe don't be worried, world is big, I think there will be "patched" version of FT or needed file which will allow use it. At least I hope it will be really soon.

[sobek]

Btw. asso, what's your definition of soon? I know you won't give a certain date but are we talking weeks or months?

Edited December 13, 2008 by sobek

[Guest Oversyd]

Provisional solution with 6DOF

 

Hey,

 

Just managed to get 6dof with Freetrack (via ppjoy) in the English version. It's working fine. In the options, controls, select "axis command" and in the ppjoy column, bind the following axis :

 

Absolute horizontal view : JOY X

Absolute vertical viex : JOY Y

Horizontal shift camera view : JOY RZ

Longitudinal shift camera view : JOY RX

Absolute roll shift : JOY Z

Absolute vertical shift : Slider 1 :huh:

 

... and delete them from the "controls" section.:pilotfly: