Am I the only one who found it extremely easy to out-rate ACE AI with the new viper?

[noobplayer]

I am noob, I know nothing about ACM except for pulling the stick as hard as I can.

The only trick I used was extending the flaps. Start the fight at about 11000 feet. This works 100% for me.

The energy retention is so good that the F-16 keeps accelerating even with maximum pull. I have to raise altitude to avoid over-speeding.

Soon the AI got its energy drained out. It can't keep up with the speedy viper.

I already froze my fuel to 100%, unlike the AI which gains more maneuverability as the fuel burns over time.

I know the ace AI also has those magical aerodynamics to give it extra boost in agility.

But... It is so easy.

This is me fighting an ace JF-17.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by noobplayer

[noobplayer]

This is me fighting a hornet:

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by noobplayer

[Chain_1]

That's interesting.  With the flap switch in EXT I can't get much more than 6 g and change.  But with the switch in NORM I can get the full 9 g.  This is strange considering that in the external view the flaps indicate 6 degrees in both settings at high speed.  You may have stumbled upon a bug, although I guess you could be tricking the FLCS into an AoA limit.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Chain_1
spelling error

[SCPanda]

I found it was extremely easy to fight any ACE AI in the old FM. 

Honestly, PVE dogfights really don't matter. AI FM is a myth anyway. Fight a human pilot. 

[Theodore42]

Ace AI is a good baseline to see when your flying is gaining or losing energy against said baseline. Or to judge Flight Model difference

[FaAddict]

flap extend limit your AOA to ~8, you can pull only 5-6 G max. nothing good with it, except you're at very high attitude where AOA 8 is optimize for sustained rate.

Edited March 25, 2022 by FaAddict

[Theodore42]

I narrated a 1v1 guns only I recorded vs the F-15 Ace AI:

I'm still getting used to this new FM in this dogfight, my style has already changed in the few days since I recorded this.

I found the most value was in accelerating while pulling Gs. Most of the time in this dogfight that's what I was spending my energy thinking about. And there is NO WAY I could have made that kill with the old Flight Model.

[skywalker22]

On 3/24/2022 at 5:18 AM, noobplayer said:

I am noob, I know nothing about ACM except for pulling the stick as hard as I can.

The only trick I used was extending the flaps. Start the fight at about 11000 feet. This works 100% for me.

The energy retention is so good that the F-16 keeps accelerating even with maximum pull. I have to raise altitude to avoid over-speeding.

Soon the AI got its energy drained out. It can't keep up with the speedy viper.

I already froze my fuel to 100%, unlike the AI which gains more maneuverability as the fuel burns over time.

I know the ace AI also has those magical aerodynamics to give it extra boost in agility.

But... It is so easy.

This is me fighting an ace JF-17.

 

 

Turn off the labels in the 1st place, then turn on the G-effects. You will find a bit more difficult and all won`t be so easy anymore 

[darkman222]

Manual use of flaps in the F16? Oookey, well. Last time I used manual flaps in an F16 sim was in 1993's strike commander It wrote the word "flaps" in the HUD back then, hehe. In the meantime I guess it has become quite common knowledge that the FLCS will operate the flaps automatically for you. If manual operation gave you an advantage I would consider it a bug too.

EDIT: Be advised, in your first video you never pulled more than 6G.

Fighting AI, no matter what difficulty level is no benchmark. Go on a dogfight server with real people and experience people jinking your gun shots or making you overshoot... just saying. I have not tested the updated AI but I doubt it will jink, or trick you into an overshoot situation. Its not quite there yet and I doubt it ever will.

Edited March 30, 2022 by darkman222

[skywalker22]

19 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Fighting AI, no matter what difficulty level is no benchmark. Go on a dogfight server with real people and experience people jinking your gun shots or making you overshoot... just saying. I have not tested the updated AI but I doubt it will jink, or trick you into an overshoot situation. Its not quite there yet and I doubt it ever will.

 

He seem to know exactly based on replays, where AI would be. Which will never be the case in PvP. Besides, use of head turning (trackIR, VR, or what ever) is a must playing this kind of a sim - to have the best SA as possible. You just can`t play against real people without it. Maybe in BVR a bit, but I just can`t imagine not using it in dogfight, where you have to have site of your oponent(s) at all times.

[Theodore42]

8 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Fighting AI, no matter what difficulty level is no benchmark. Go on a dogfight server with real people and experience people jinking your gun shots or making you overshoot... just saying. I have not tested the updated AI but I doubt it will jink, or trick you into an overshoot situation. Its not quite there yet and I doubt it ever will.

Come now, obviously flying against a scripted program day after day is going to be an easy benchmark. In PvP I don't know day from day who was good or if I just sucking one day. Online PvP is very inconsistent for the casual user.

Jinking is a last ditch desperate move that blows all remaining energy and no, the AI doesn't jink currently. Programing an AI to jink would probably be perceived as antagonizing the player, lol. Forcing overshoots though? Sure, although probably not in the way you're thinking.

And just try the ace AI. It does all the BFM things with you. It counters player maneuvers in a textbook fashion. It flies efficiently. And most importantly its consistency helps players quickly see where they are gaining and losing energy, even if it is only relative to an AI.

btw don't leave me out. Feel free to critique my video, not just the video by the guy LITERALLY named "noobplayer!!!"

[skywalker22]

56 minutes ago, Theodore42 said:

Come now, obviously flying against a scripted program day after day is going to be an easy benchmark. In PvP I don't know day from day who was good or if I just sucking one day. Online PvP is very inconsistent for the casual user.

Jinking is a last ditch desperate move that blows all remaining energy and no, the AI doesn't jink currently. Programing an AI to jink would probably be perceived as antagonizing the player, lol. Forcing overshoots though? Sure, although probably not in the way you're thinking.

And just try the ace AI. It does all the BFM things with you. It counters player maneuvers in a textbook fashion. It flies efficiently. And most importantly its consistency helps players quickly see where they are gaining and losing energy, even if it is only relative to an AI.

btw don't leave me out. Feel free to critique my video, not just the video by the guy LITERALLY named "noobplayer!!!"

Try F/A-18  It does some kind of a jink (more like a cobra maneuver) at ground level, all the time. Its really annoying. Many times it crashes because of that as well. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by skywalker22

[FoxxyTrotty]

On 3/30/2022 at 9:01 PM, skywalker22 said:

Try F/A-18  It does some kind of a jink (more like a cobra maneuver) at ground level, all the time. Its really annoying. Many times it crashes because of that as well. 

 

Yeah I think that's a bug... I've seen this lately and it holds the high alphas near the ground (which I thought was maybe a "trick" to lul the player into a low speed/stall/spin to get manouvre kill) but it ends up hitting any thing in the way, be it a building, powerline, slight hill etc... No idea what they've done here, but the ace ai in F18 sucks right now

[Reusenfisch]

Hallo! 

I dont know the reason for this video! All I see is a F16 turning and burning...

It takes way to long to get AI into the vicinity of the nose. And I am not sure, but in the end you are not even close to a contolled WEZ position. Limiting the F16 to a lesser AoA and G available is totally stupid and you doesnt even kill the AI...

Flying level turns without using vertical is not a skill. It is quite the opposite. Flying DCS without G effects, well...

We all know that the FM was improved. If the intend was just to demonstrate the enegry maintining 5 G turn level, than it is okay. Showing how to use the new FM to kill somebody than it is a fail. No BFM skills observed...

 

Horrido

[Theodore42]

19 hours ago, Blutpumpe said:

We all know that the FM was improved. If the intend was just to demonstrate the enegry maintining 5 G turn level, than it is okay. Showing how to use the new FM to kill somebody than it is a fail. No BFM skills observed...

The topic is literally "How to out-rate Ace AI," not "how to win BFM." If you want to s&$& talk BFM then critique MY video I posted!! Pleeeeeze! I guess it's technically off topic depending on how you define "out-rate," I just assumed it was in reference to flying to gain energy on the target, not specifically to turn.

[Talon Karde]

On 3/24/2022 at 5:18 AM, noobplayer said:

I am noob, I know nothing about ACM except for pulling the stick as hard as I can.

The only trick I used was extending the flaps. Start the fight at about 11000 feet. This works 100% for me.

The energy retention is so good that the F-16 keeps accelerating even with maximum pull. I have to raise altitude to avoid over-speeding.

Soon the AI got its energy drained out. It can't keep up with the speedy viper.

I already froze my fuel to 100%, unlike the AI which gains more maneuverability as the fuel burns over time.

I know the ace AI also has those magical aerodynamics to give it extra boost in agility.

But... It is so easy.

This is me fighting an ace JF-17.

 

 

Well, having flaps out you limited the G. With flaps retracted, you can loose energy fast pulling the stick to the max. YOu have to be more kind with the stick because I can garantee you that you will lose energy and the fight pulling the stick with flaps retracted.

[BogeySmoke]

You aren't out-rating the AI. 

Your sustained rate is about 1/2 what is would be with normal Flaps.

You're just turning in a massive circle at huge speed.  The AI probably thinks you're running away.

 

You can do the same 'trick' with Stores Config III.

Both limit the possible AoA, meaning you can pull full stick and instead of turning tighter until you stall, you'll just have a very loose turn that lets you accelerate.

 

Extending flaps is a great way to save yourself from g-loc when you are too fast for turning.

Edited April 9, 2022 by BogeySmoke