correct as-is Acquisition source automatically switching to PLT while I'm in the CPG seat

[sirrah]

Posting this here, as it's probably something I'm doing wrong, rather than a bug.

Also, apologies up front for the lack of a track file. They are to big in size to upload here.

 

I'm having a problem while in the CPG seat. It seems that the AI pilot occasionally takes over the active sensor. Situation:

While using the TADS trying to find targets as a CPG, out of the blue, the acquisition source switches from TADS to PLT and my TADS display seems to reset. Pretty sure it's the AI pilot doing this, because at some point I was attacking a unit and each a nearby SA15 launched an intercept missie, my TADS display instanyly did a reset (resulting in me not being able to keep the laser on target and my missile missing its target)

 

 

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?

 

I'll try to reproduce later this weekend and post a track file of the issue.

[admiki]

Acquisition source has absolutely nothing to you not being able to use TADS unless you slave it. I would check your bindings to see if you have double binding for slaving TADS.

[sirrah]

32 minutes ago, admiki said:

Acquisition source has absolutely nothing to you not being able to use TADS unless you slave it. I would check your bindings to see if you have double binding for slaving TADS.

I just noticed that the acquisition source on the left mpd had switched from TADS to PLT each time it happened, so I assumed my issue was related to it. Also, the TADS display doesn't automatically slave to another point (which would indeed be an indication of a secondary slave bind), but it instantaneously switches to focus on another area (somewhere in the sky).

 

As soon as social life let's me, I'll try and create a small scenario to reproduce the issue and drop a track file here.

 

(I was kinda hoping for an answer here like: "I had the same issue and solved it by doing ......." )

Edited April 15, 2022 by sirrah

[kgillers3]

35 minutes ago, sirrah said:

I just noticed that the acquisition source on the left mpd had switched from TADS to PLT each time it happened, so I assumed my issue was related to it. Also, the TADS display doesn't automatically slave to another point (which would indeed be an indication of a secondary slave bind), but it instantaneously switches to focus on another area (somewhere in the sky).

 

As soon as social life let's me, I'll try and create a small scenario to reproduce the issue and drop a track file here.

 

(I was kinda hoping for an answer here like: "I had the same issue and solved it by doing ......." )

 

As soon as you sight select tads your acquisition source option for tads goes away because the LOS is where the tads is looking, that would be my guess what is occurring, you're in the front seat, select acq tads but your sight is HMD (your helmet), you're telling the system you want to use the tads as a sight so you sight select tads and the acq source option in the front seat now goes away and Tads is no longer an option for something to look at. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by kgillers3

[sirrah]

Oh my, I'm really having difficulties understanding what you are saying and how it all works (it's not your explanation, but merely my inability to understand it at the moment)

I seriously need to find a way to reproduce my problem and show you guys what I'm doing. Hopefully someone can then tell me exactly what I'm doing wrong .

[kgillers3]

7 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Oh my, I'm really having difficulties understanding what you are saying and how it all works (it's not your explanation, but merely my inability to understand it at the moment)

I seriously need to find a way to reproduce my problem and show you guys what I'm doing. Hopefully someone can then tell me exactly what I'm doing wrong .

ACQ = What you want to look at or slave the tads too, but it is merely a reference.  

Sight which is in the lower left of your HDU is what you're using to employ weapons, the solid cross on your screen for HMD and I guess tads to even though it changes. 

You cannot use the same thing both a sight and an acquisition.  I'm guessing you're sight selection is still C-HMD when you're making the tads an acquisition source on the MPD.  You probably then sight select TADs which changes your symbiology and you see your acquisition source has changed, it's changing because you've changed your sight. You don't need TADs as an acquisition source any longer when you're using the TADs as a sight.  

But I could also be misunderstanding what you're experiencing. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by kgillers3

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

8 hours ago, sirrah said:

......... but it instantaneously switches to focus on another area (somewhere in the sky).

 

My guess is your ACQ became FXD (fixed or bore in plane lingo). As others have said, Sight and ACQ are separate; they can be swapped but cannot be the same. Not the best analogy but to simplify, think of a sniper aiming at a target standing next to a lamp post. The rifle scope is the Sight (aim the weapon) and the lamp post is the ACQ (reference as to where to look for the target). The Sight and ACQ are slewable. The Slave button can direct the Sight to follow the ACQ (dotted cross). Unslave returns control to the Sight to fine tune your aim. But if you use HDU as Sight, naturally nothing can Slave your head to the ACQ. You need to move your head yourself but there are the dots at the tip of the crosshairs to point you to where the ACQ is.

My question though is this. As CP/G with HDU as Sight and TADS as ACQ, why can't I slew the TADS? I can see the RHG slew button moving but the TADS isn't slewing.       

[Raptor9]

20 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

My question though is this. As CP/G with HDU as Sight and TADS as ACQ, why can't I slew the TADS? I can see the RHG slew button moving but the TADS isn't slewing.       

Because your selected sight is your HMD, but the RHG slew controller can't slew your own head.

[kgillers3]

1 hour ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

My question though is this. As CP/G with HDU as Sight and TADS as ACQ, why can't I slew the TADS? I can see the RHG slew button moving but the TADS isn't slewing.       

The tads can be controlled in 1 of 2 ways. As a sight after you sight select tads, or as a sensor via the nvs mode switch. Any other way you don’t have control over it.  
 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by kgillers3

[admiki]

3 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

My question though is this. As CP/G with HDU as Sight and TADS as ACQ, why can't I slew the TADS? I can see the RHG slew button moving but the TADS isn't slewing.       

And this is great example of people not understanding difference between sight and ACQ source. You want to slave TADS. Slave it to what, itself? 

Sight is how you aim your weapons, ACQ source is where you want your sensor/s to look.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

And this is great example of people not understanding difference between sight and ACQ source. You want to slave TADS. Slave it to what, itself? 
Sight is how you aim your weapons, ACQ source is where you want your sensor/s to look.

Looks like you can’t read. I said slew not slave. And I understand perfectly.

[sirrah]

Yay! I finally found the issue!

Somehow, it seems that the button on my secondary HOTAS (which I use for left and right CPG grips) which I bound to "Sight Slave", is overly sensitive. 

If it suddenly decides to activate while I'm aiming the TADS at a target, the TADS goes to (what I assume is) boresight position.

I need to either fix that HOTAS button or bind the sight slave to another button.

Thanks for trying to help guys!

Edited April 16, 2022 by sirrah
Grammar

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

10 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Because your selected sight is your HMD, but the RHG slew controller can't slew your own head.

Why would I want or need it to do that? Technically, it could have allowed me to slew the TADS to a target and the HDU cue dots then point me where to look when I hit slave, just saying. That is actually what happens if I go about it with TADS as sight first. Also, why let the CPG have TADS as an ACQ option if you are not going to let him use/slew it?

Edited April 16, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Raptor9]

5 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Why would I want or need it to do that? Technically, it could have allowed me to slew the TADS to a target and the HDU cue dots then point me where to look when I hit slave, just saying. That is actually what happens if I go about it with TADS as sight first. Also, why let the CPG have TADS as an ACQ option if you are not going to let him use/slew it?

Because the RHG Manual Track controller slews the active sight manually (whether it be the TADS or FCR), not just the TADS.  This is why it only slews the TADS when TADS is your selected sight. If you select HMD (Helmet-Mounted Display) as your sight, it is non-functional because it can't slew your own helmet.

Any of your sight select options (HMD, TADS, or FCR) can be set as your ACQ source, but not if they are your active sight.  This is why these options are selectively removed from the ACQ source list when they are selected as the sight.  Why would you need to slave the TADS to the TADS LOS?  How do you slave the TADS to where the TADS is pointing?  This concept is illogical.  This is why some have suggested that you have a misunderstanding of how "Sight" and "Acquisition source" relate to each other.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

50 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Because the RHG Manual Track controller slews the active sight manually (whether it be the TADS or FCR), not just the TADS.  This is why it only slews the TADS when TADS is your selected sight. If you select HMD (Helmet-Mounted Display) as your sight, it is non-functional because it can't slew your own helmet.

If the RHG man track can only slew the TADS/FCR, then fine. It's just they way they made it. That was all I needed to answer my question actually.

50 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Any of your sight select options (HMD, TADS, or FCR) can be set as your ACQ source, but not if they are your active sight.  This is why these options are selectively removed from the ACQ source list when they are selected as the sight. 

Yes obviously. I was in C/HMD as sight and TADS as ACQ just to be clear. 

50 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Why would you need to slave the TADS to the TADS LOS?  How do you slave the TADS to where the TADS is pointing? 

Who's talking about slaving the TADS to the TADS LOS?

But imagine this - I am on C/HMD as sight and TADS as ACQ. If I could only slew the TADS, I could zoom in and SLEW (not slave!) it onto a target. Then I move in on that target with guns. But I need a reference on my C/HMD. I hit slave and the CUE DOTS point me to the target/dotted cross for my guns to take out. Anything wrong with this hypothetical picture?

Edited April 16, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[kgillers3]

3 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

If the RHG man track can only slew the TADS/FCR, then fine. It's just they way they made it. That was all I needed to answer my question actually.

Yes obviously. I was in C/HMD as sight and TADS as ACQ just to be clear. 

Who's talking about slaving the TADS to the TADS LOS?

But imagine this - I am on C/HMD as sight and TADS as ACQ. If I could only slew the TADS, I could zoom in and SLEW (not slave!) it onto a target. Then I move in on that target with guns. But I need a reference on my C/HMD. I hit slave and the CUE DOTS point me to the target/dotted cross for my guns to take out. Anything wrong with this hypothetical picture?

 

Imagine this. You look out you see something. Acq ghs slave. Zoom in. 

Assuming you were trying to be a jerk with your yea obviously and what not. Way to be a jerk about something you don’t understand and him helping you out. 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by kgillers3

[Raptor9]

2 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Yes obviously. I was in C/HMD as sight and TADS as ACQ just to be clear.

Who's talking about slaving the TADS to the TADS LOS?

I was responding to your statement here:

...and stating that the RHG MAN TRK control wouldn't respond because your selected sight is HMD, and so it would be like telling the aircraft to slew your head, to which you responded:

...in which you asked why TADS can be an ACQ option if you aren't going to let him use it? I then replied that you can only use TADS as ACQ if TADS is not your selected sight, because there seemed to be confusion with how the logic works:

The statement below is what made me think you are trying to use the TADS as a Sight and as an ACQ at the same time:

If the only way you can slew the TADS is by setting it as a Sight, and you are asking why you can't do that if TADS is your ACQ, in my mind that means you are asking why you can't slew the [TADS as your Sight] with [TADS as your ACQ]. Also, when the TADS isn't being used as a sight (or as an NVS sensor by either crewmember), it is supposed to slave fixed forward.  Currently in game it just remains in it's last commanded position, which isn't accurate behavior.

38 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

But imagine this - I am on C/HMD as sight and TADS as ACQ. If I could only slew the TADS, I could zoom in and SLEW (not slave!) it onto a target. Then I move in on that target with guns. But I need a reference on my C/HMD. I hit slave and the CUE DOTS point me to the target/dotted cross for my guns. Anything wrong with this hypothetical picture?

So in effect, you aren't asking why you can't select the TADS as an ACQ source while sight-selected to C-HMD (which you can, obviously, we both know this), you are asking why the MAN TRK controller can't slew the TADS under the conditions you specified (which is not possible in the real aircraft), in order to perform the type of attack you outlined in this quote.  To this I will say that such an attack procedure is illogical, which is why I was confused as to what you were asking, but understandable given the current state of the DCS AH-64D behavior. Let me explain:

If I have time to slew my TADS onto a target for a gun engagement, I should engage that target with the TADS as my sight anyway, since the TADS is a more accurate method for engaging targets with the gun.  The only time you should be engaging targets with the gun while HMD is your selected Sight is for short-range defensive/suppression shots.  The CPG's HMD (as the inaccurate/short-range Sight option) should be used to cue the TADS (as the accurate/long-range Sight option) to enemy locations for targeting/engagement, not the other way around. It's one thing to use the TADS as the ACQ in the pilot's seat since the pilot can only use the HMD as a Sight, but it wouldn't be a logical use of sights/sensors in the CPG seat to use the TADS to cue the CPG HMD to a target.
__________________________________________

TL;DR
1) The CPG using the TADS as an ACQ source to cue the CPG's HMD to engage something is not a sound procedure since it means engaging targets at much shorter ranges with a more inaccurate Sight option.
2) When the TADS isn't selected as a Sight or NVS sensor, it should slew fixed forward anyway, despite the current behavior of just remaining at last commanded heading/elevation.
3) The MAN TRK controller only moves the selected sight, so if TADS is not the selected sight, it will not move when MAN TRK is used.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

So in effect, you aren't asking why you can't select the TADS as an ACQ source while sight-selected to C-HMD (which you can, obviously, we both know this), you are asking why the MAN TRK controller can't slew the TADS under the conditions you specified (which is not possible in the real aircraft), in order to perform the type of attack you outlined in this quote.  To this I will say that such an attack procedure is illogical, which is why I was confused as to what you were asking, but understandable given the current state of the DCS AH-64D behavior. Let me explain:
If I have time to slew my TADS onto a target for a gun engagement, I should engage that target with the TADS as my sight anyway, since the TADS is a more accurate method for engaging targets with the gun.  The only time you should be engaging targets with the gun while HMD is your selected Sight is for short-range defensive/suppression shots.  The CPG's HMD (as the inaccurate/short-range Sight option) should be used to cue the TADS (as the accurate/long-range Sight option) to enemy locations for targeting/engagement, not the other way around. It's one thing to use the TADS as the ACQ in the pilot's seat since the pilot can only use the HMD as a Sight, but it wouldn't be a logical use of sights/sensors in the CPG seat to use the TADS to cue the CPG HMD to a target.
__________________________________________
TL;DR
1) The CPG using the TADS as an ACQ source to cue the CPG's HMD to engage something is not a sound procedure since it means engaging targets at much shorter ranges with a more inaccurate Sight option.
2) When the TADS isn't selected as a Sight or NVS sensor, it should slew fixed forward anyway, despite the current behavior of just remaining at last commanded heading/elevation.
3) The MAN TRK controller only moves the selected sight, so if TADS is not the selected sight, it will not move when MAN TRK is used.

I think you were too focused on thinking I wanted TADS as sight whenever I mentioned slewing. Anyway, with that cleared up, I wouldn’t say it’s a completely useless or illogical scenario to have a slewable TADS ACQ. May not be military procedure but it could still find a use. So then, how would one use TADS as ACQ if all it could do under those conditions (CHMD as sight) was to zoom at the sky or whatever last and possibly irrelevant LOS? I mean why even include it as an option?

[Raptor9]

40 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

So then, how would one use TADS as ACQ if all it could do under those conditions (CHMD as sight) was to zoom at the sky or whatever last and possibly irrelevant LOS? I mean why even include it as an option?

Because TADS isn't meant to be used by the CPG when sight selected to C-HMD; as an ACQ source option, it is meant to be used when sight-selected to the FCR.

[Kharrn]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb GrEaSeLiTeNiN:

But imagine this - I am on C/HMD as sight and TADS as ACQ. If I could only slew the TADS, I could zoom in and SLEW (not slave!) it onto a target. Then I move in on that target with guns. But I need a reference on my C/HMD. I hit slave and the CUE DOTS point me to the target/dotted cross for my guns to take out. Anything wrong with this hypothetical picture?

 

IMHO yes.

Options from my pov:

a) ACQ GHS, sight HMD -> looking and finding a target -> sight select TADS, slave TADS to GHS (HMD), point on target an deslave. Sight select HMD and engage if you wanna or stay in TADS but turn off (fold away) IHADSS (i key) and start your slaving if you need to. Lase n blaze. 

b) slave TADS to GHS but stay in TADS. Turn FLIR GAIN or Level (cant remember atm) down and you can "head track" the TADS on the target while not having the FLIR in your IHADSS but still the symbology. Dont know if this is done IRL...

 

Also check your HAD (high action display) and cuing dots. Its all there imho.

K

 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

19 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Because TADS isn't meant to be used by the CPG when sight selected to C-HMD; as an ACQ source option, it is meant to be used when sight-selected to the FCR.

I see, the missing FCR in the puzzle. Perhaps they could have removed TADS as an ACQ option when in C-HMD sight. Thanks anyway.

Edited April 17, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN