correct as-is TGP attempts maverick handoff even when in "Manual" mode

[desertowl]

Per the title,

Even when TGP is set to MAN, TMS up or right still attempts handoff to the maverick.

see attached .trk

MK

MAV handoff in MAN.trk

[skywalker22]

If you are in manual mode on TPG, after selecting a target (TMS UP), you will always have to focus (SOI) the WPN (weapon) page on the other MFD, and go TMS UP so the Maverick will Boresight to the point where TGP is currenly looking.

When in Auto mode on TGP, Maverick will automaticly slew to the point where TGP is looking after going TMS Up (when SOI is TGP).

[desertowl]

7 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

If you are in manual mode on TPG, after selecting a target (TMS UP), you will always have to focus (SOI) the WPN (weapon) page on the other MFD, and go TMS UP so the Maverick will Boresight to the point where TGP is currenly looking.

When in Auto mode on TGP, Maverick will automaticly slew to the point where TGP is looking after going TMS Up (when SOI is TGP).

I know that, but right now even if the TGP is set to MAN, when pressing TMS Up or right, the WPN page displays "Handoff in progress" which is erroneous.

MK

[skywalker22]

Indeed it shows that message on the WPN page. Although there actual handoff is not really made. 

I think you might be correct, there must not be that message either.

ED?

[desertowl]

6 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

Indeed it shows that message on the WPN page. Although there actual handoff is not really made. 

I think you might be correct, there must not be that message either.

ED?

They noted it as "Investigating".

[NineLine]

7 hours ago, desertowl said:

Per the title,

Even when TGP is set to MAN, TMS up or right still attempts handoff to the maverick.

see attached .trk

MK

MAV handoff in MAN.trk 729.71 kB · 5 downloads

Sorry the track isn't working as intended as it doesn't show an issue, please supply a new track if this is still an issue. We have tested and it is working as intended for us.

Make sure no user mods are used. 

[desertowl]

Hello,

Indeed the track is broken on my PC as well, no mods are being used. 

attached is a photo showing the anomaly.

MK

 

[NineLine]

Looks like you are too far away, you are 19 miles away, you should not expect a track until about 8 nm. 6 nm for TV guided.

[desertowl]

5 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Looks like you are too far away, you are 19 miles away, you should not expect a track until about 8 nm. 6 nm for TV guided.

The issue is that the TGP is in Manual mode, why does it attempt handover to the maverick at all?

MK

[NineLine]

4 minutes ago, desertowl said:

The issue is that the TGP is in Manual mode, why does it attempt handover to the maverick at all?

MK

Because you had a Mav called up and designated it on the TGP

It will auto slave the Mav seeker to the TGP LOS

Only when the Mav seeker is tracking range should you then try to have the Mav track it

[nighteyes2017]

As far as i inderstood it. The manual/auto mode does not mean handoff mode on or off. Rather it determines if the maverick tries to lock on manually or automatically. Meaning you do not have to switch soi to the maverick and lock on. With auto it will try (If close enough) and do that on its own. Mind you, not all mavericks have the auto lock capability. So it has to be the right type. 

[desertowl]

3 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Because you had a Mav called up and designated it on the TGP

It will auto slave the Mav seeker to the TGP LOS

Only when the Mav seeker is tracking range should you then try to have the Mav track it

According to the DCS viper manual, handoff should happen only in Auto handoff sub-mode (page 179):

[NineLine]

Try watching this

 

MAV-MAN.trk

[NineLine]

This might help here, Wags talks about handing off too early.

 

[nighteyes2017]

33 minutes ago, desertowl said:

According to the DCS viper manual, handoff should happen only in Auto handoff sub-mode (page 179):

Yep, that states exactly what i said. The manually talks about the lock itself. Handoff is not locking the maverick. So i see the confusion here. Handoff and locking are 2 seperate things. 

[skywalker22]

In my opinion, if using MAN mode on the TGP, why would there be a message on WPN page of Maverick "Handoff in Progress", if there is actually no handoff what so ever? There is no point of showing that message.

That message should only appear when in AUTO mode on TGP.

And I also think that handoff means that the MAV looks into the same direction as the TGP, and so it locks on target.

[nighteyes2017]

No. Thats not it. The tgp always hands off to the maverick when the maverick is capable of receiving a handoff. It is about the lock that comes after the handoff. The man/auto does not handle whether or not the tgp does a handoff. It is about the lock that is needed after the handoff. 

 

Handoff does not mean lock. Watch the vid. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by nighteyes2017
spelling errors

[itn]

Hi,

I think desertowl's bug report and later messages are quite clear. Some of the replies are somewhat confused about what the bug is about. It's not about getting a successful MAV lock, it's about the TGP commanding the MAV to lock (handoff) when it is in manual handoff mode and it should not attempt handoff.

Strictly speaking I think the bug is: "MAV WPN page shows HANDOFF IN PROGRESS text when TGP is in manual handoff mode and TGP acquires point track."

Not sure if the bit about TMS right in MAN mode is a bug (or unrealistic) or not. It would seem plausible to me that TMS right might be usable for handoff in MAN mode. In any case, I think it's quite clear TGP should not attempt completely automatic handoff after point track when you're in manual handoff mode.

Attached is a track that works for me, where I demonstrate the issue. HANDOFF text shown when TGP in MAN mode. Note that the bug is not about getting MAV to lock or not, it's about attempting the handoff (lock) or not.

And I think the manual and Wags' videos are quite clear about the meaning of "handoff". For example, see this earlier video (timestamped link). In PRE mode, both in MAN and AUTO handoff mode MAV seeker head slews with TGP. Handoff is specifically about commanding the MAV lock automatically or not.

 

Best regards,
itn

 

F16-AGM65D-MAN-AUTO-handoff.trk

[desertowl]

52 minutes ago, itn said:

Hi,

I think desertowl's bug report and later messages are quite clear. Some of the replies are somewhat confused about what the bug is about. It's not about getting a successful MAV lock, it's about the TGP commanding the MAV to lock (handoff) when it is in manual handoff mode and it should not attempt handoff.

Strictly speaking I think the bug is: "MAV WPN page shows HANDOFF IN PROGRESS text when TGP is in manual handoff mode and TGP acquires point track."

Not sure if the bit about TMS right in MAN mode is a bug (or unrealistic) or not. It would seem plausible to me that TMS right might be usable for handoff in MAN mode. In any case, I think it's quite clear TGP should not attempt completely automatic handoff after point track when you're in manual handoff mode.

Attached is a track that works for me, where I demonstrate the issue. HANDOFF text shown when TGP in MAN mode. Note that the bug is not about getting MAV to lock or not, it's about attempting the handoff (lock) or not.

And I think the manual and Wags' videos are quite clear about the meaning of "handoff". For example, see this earlier video (timestamped link). In PRE mode, both in MAN and AUTO handoff mode MAV seeker head slews with TGP. Handoff is specifically about commanding the MAV lock automatically or not.

 

Best regards,
itn

 

F16-AGM65D-MAN-AUTO-handoff.trk 104.05 kB · 0 downloads

This was indeed my intent.

Thanks itn.

MK

[skywalker22]

If this is how it is correct, then OK (TGP in MAN mode (hard to see, but it is if you look closely, Handoff in progress and MAV slews to the same point as TGP):

 

 

PS: whats the advantage of MAN mode compared to AUTO on TGP?

Edited May 1, 2022 by skywalker22

[BIGNEWY]

There is no "advantage" man simply requires the player to manually track the Maverick to the target.

auto, as the name implies, allows the Mav to auto-track the slaved-to target.

thanks

[Bunny Clark]

The Dash 34 is ambiguous on this question, and doesn't mention the AUTO / MAN function at all (nor is the option even visible on the TGP Page in illustrations). My guess is that the function was added when the CCD versions of the Maverick that aren't capable of an auto track were introduced. MAN mode would then allow the TGP to place the Mav seeker in about the correct place but require the pilot to confirm final targeting, as the F-16's computer can't perform an automatic image match between the TGP and a CCD Maverik seeker. 

It makes sense to leave the "HANDOFF IN PROGRESS" message on the TGP in both cases, as it allows the pilot to easily see which station is being commanded to LOS slave. IRL, the computer will step to a new station automatically if a handoff fails, and you can also handoff two missiles in a row automatically for simultaneous tracking.

[Frederf]

Would the SOI automatically be changed to WPN since the pilot is expected to manually control the missile?

[skywalker22]

56 minutes ago, Frederf said:

Would the SOI automatically be changed to WPN since the pilot is expected to manually control the missile?

No, pilot has to to that. Thats why its "manual".

[Frederf]

But when you use FCR as EO PRE sensor the SOI switch is automatic