Link 4A/C and 16

[bonesvf103]

So I'm trying to figure out the benefits and use of these links.  Link 4A goes between fighter/AWACS/etc assets whereas Link4C is only between the Tomcats.  The two links can't be communicated on at the same time.  So, if two Tomcats are sharing radar contacts with each other on Link 4C, and they want to pass that info to the E-2 or say an F/A-18 nearby, when they switch to Link 4A, do they lose their Link 4C contacts since they can't do A and C at the same time?

What if the F/A-18 is on Link 16, how does it get contacts that the Tomcat sees on Link 4?  The Hornet has to switch to Link 4A?

Why bother with Link 4C between Tomcats if they can get an arguably better picture from the E-2 on Link 4A?

What good is any of the data Tomcats or Hawkeyes have/give on Link 4 if everyone else is on Link 16?

I'm just a bit confused.

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

[near_blind]

10 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

What if the F/A-18 is on Link 16, how does it get contacts that the Tomcat sees on Link 4?  The Hornet has to switch to Link 4A?

It doesn't. Link 4A data only goes one way.

10 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

Why bother with Link 4C between Tomcats if they can get an arguably better picture from the E-2 on Link 4A?

You aren't always guaranteed to have an E-2 around, or be in range of an E-2 or a boat.

10 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

What good is any of the data Tomcats or Hawkeyes have/give on Link 4 if everyone else is on Link 16?

It exists, and you can use it. That's what's good about it. Comparing Link-4 with Link-16 is always going to come up short because Link-16 is the better system, it's also 20 years newer and has the benefit of building off of the lessons learned from Link-4. Link-4's advantage is that it exists in 1974, and that you can use it while half the jets you would conceivably facing barely have a useful radar, much less any sort of datalink beyond "fly this heading and altitude".

 

[Istari6]

Great topic.  I had many of these same questions.

Did Link 4 exist in 1974?  ISTR reading somewhere that Link 4 is one of the features of the later A model Tomcats, and would not be available in F-14-95-GR.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Istari6

[sLYFa]

The Hawkeye's radar apparently wasnt all that great in the 70s-80s and there was an ongoing debate about how much of the scouting (i.e. outter airpase survaillance) needed to be offloaded to fighters (both Tomcats and Hornets). The F2F DL is extremly useful for this. 

[TLTeo]

For DCS only, personally I just use 4A if there's a Hawkeye in the mission and 4C otherwise.

And yeah, you can't compare it to Link 16. It's like asking why would fighters carry Sparrows when AMRAAMs exist.

[bonesvf103]

In DCS, if there is an E-3, is it also broadcasting in Link 4A?  So link 4A is one way and that is from the E-2 to the Tomcat?  So the Tomcat can't send anything to the E-2 or an E-3 for that matter?

Also in DCS, OK Link-4 is available and you can use it, but how does that help you in the big picture if everyone else is on Link 16?  How did they mitigate that in real life when the Tomcat was still flying and had to do so amongst Hornets and Falcons etc?

v6,

boNes

[TLTeo]

I believe Link 4A should be OK with an E-3 as well. At least, the manual does not mention it being E-2 only, it simply states that you can get a list of possible hosts from the kneeboard. As I understand it yes, it is indeed a one way datalink from AWACS to fighter rather than the two way.

As to real life - I suppose they just used common sense and didn't rely exclusively on the datalink for situational awareness. It's not like the Tomcat is the only outlier either; USMC Harriers didn't have Link 16 for a while (and some may not have it yet?), A-10s and some USAF F-16s use SADL instead of Link 16, etc.

Edited July 5, 2022 by TLTeo

[Whiskey11]

11 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

In DCS, if there is an E-3, is it also broadcasting in Link 4A?  So link 4A is one way and that is from the E-2 to the Tomcat?  So the Tomcat can't send anything to the E-2 or an E-3 for that matter?

Also in DCS, OK Link-4 is available and you can use it, but how does that help you in the big picture if everyone else is on Link 16?  How did they mitigate that in real life when the Tomcat was still flying and had to do so amongst Hornets and Falcons etc?

v6,

boNes

Yes, the E-3 broadcasts in Link4A and Link16

How does being on Link4A help if everyone else is on Link16?  Simple... you have the ability to see datalinked targets from the E-3/E-2.

In real life, it didn't matter any more than it does in DCS because the system still allowed for the F-16 or F/A-18 to see the same targets through Link16 while you see them through Link4A.  The biggest disadvantage of Link4A was the security of the network.  Being an older protocol, it had security weaknesses that Link16 does not, and still does not, have.  The other two major advantages Link16 has is that Link16 is two way, and it has a voice component (MIDS).  Being a two way datalink the parties in Link16 networks can feed data to each other.  Link4C can do this between Tomcats, but Link4A could not backfeed information to the AWACS or other Link4A partners.  Of course in Link4C the Tomcats couldn't see anything from Link4A.

As others have said, you use Link4C when there is no AWACS available.  It allows for your F-14 network to support each other with information.

FWIW, this was corrected with JTIDS in the F-14D in the 1990's... JTIDS, and the later B(U) program saw Link16 hit the B fleet to compliment the D fleet.  I'm guessing the A fleet saw it too in limited fashion.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Whiskey11

[Naquaii]

1 hour ago, Whiskey11 said:

In real life, it didn't matter any more than it does in DCS because the system still allowed for the F-16 or F/A-18 to see the same targets through Link16 while you see them through Link4A.  The biggest disadvantage of Link4A was the security of the network.  Being an older protocol, it had security weaknesses that Link16 does not, and still does not, have.  The other two major advantages Link16 has is that Link16 is two way, and it has a voice component (MIDS).  Being a two way datalink the parties in Link16 networks can feed data to each other.  Link4C can do this between Tomcats, but Link4A could not backfeed information to the AWACS or other Link4A partners.  Of course in Link4C the Tomcats couldn't see anything from Link4A.

FWIW, this was corrected with JTIDS in the F-14D in the 1990's... JTIDS, and the later B(U) program saw Link16 hit the B fleet to compliment the D fleet.  I'm guessing the A fleet saw it too in limited fashion.

 

Link 4A was very much two-way, the datalink controller sent commands and surveillance tracks to the F-14 but the F-14 also answered with own location, own sensor tracks and replies to commands etc. This however has no application in DCS as there's no human controller on the other side.

In regards to Link 16 I've never seen anything mentioning it being present in F-14A or B, just F-14D.

[RustBelt]

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

In DCS, if there is an E-3, is it also broadcasting in Link 4A?  So link 4A is one way and that is from the E-2 to the Tomcat?  So the Tomcat can't send anything to the E-2 or an E-3 for that matter?

Also in DCS, OK Link-4 is available and you can use it, but how does that help you in the big picture if everyone else is on Link 16?  How did they mitigate that in real life when the Tomcat was still flying and had to do so amongst Hornets and Falcons etc?

v6,

boNes

In real life they have actual humans looking and talking in the AWACS and on the ground with a full big picture. DCS is a sandbox, not a real battle simulation. None of these planes operated in isolated silence. Only the DCS simulacra makes you operate like this.

[Whiskey11]

9 hours ago, Naquaii said:

Link 4A was very much two-way, the datalink controller sent commands and surveillance tracks to the F-14 but the F-14 also answered with own location, own sensor tracks and replies to commands etc. This however has no application in DCS as there's no human controller on the other side.

In regards to Link 16 I've never seen anything mentioning it being present in F-14A or B, just F-14D.

I was under the impression the B(U) had it with the GPS-INS upgrade implementation.... probably wrong on that. 

You are right about the Link4A stuff, I crossed out the section with the incorrect info.  Do you know if an E-3 can push Link4A contacts out over Link16 (or 4A) to other aircraft like an aircraft could over Link16?  I'm not sure it can?  I honestly don't know.

[Naquaii]

4 hours ago, Whiskey11 said:

I was under the impression the B(U) had it with the GPS-INS upgrade implementation.... probably wrong on that. 

You are right about the Link4A stuff, I crossed out the section with the incorrect info.  Do you know if an E-3 can push Link4A contacts out over Link16 (or 4A) to other aircraft like an aircraft could over Link16?  I'm not sure it can?  I honestly don't know.

I don't know for sure either but I would guess that it could. My guess is that the TADIL systems would be integrated into the C2 system of the AWACS allowing the operator to use both links with system tracks.

That functionality isn't really there for DCS though and would work best with a human operator anyway who could prioritize and select what tracks to promulgate. Esp Link 4 is quite limited in the amount of tracks.

[DSplayer]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:16 PM, Naquaii said:

Link 4A was very much two-way, the datalink controller sent commands and surveillance tracks to the F-14 but the F-14 also answered with own location, own sensor tracks and replies to commands etc. This however has no application in DCS as there's no human controller on the other side.

 

On 7/6/2022 at 4:21 AM, Naquaii said:

That functionality isn't really there for DCS though and would work best with a human operator anyway who could prioritize and select what tracks to promulgate. Esp Link 4 is quite limited in the amount of tracks.

Is there a possibility that in the future you guys could possibly collaborate with ED for a unified Link 4 code that has integration with LotATC similar to how TAF works with the Mirage 2000 (being able to choose what target is being sent to the aircraft via TAF)?

 

Example video: 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by DSplayer

[IronMike]

37 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

 

Is there a possibility that in the future you guys could possibly collaborate with ED for a unified Link 4 code that has integration with LotATC similar to how TAF works with the Mirage 2000 (being able to choose what target is being sent to the aircraft via TAF)?

 

Example video: 

 

 

What exactly do you mean by a unified link 4 code?

Because what the hornet uses for ACLS is not quite the same thing, if you mean that.

[DSplayer]

49 minutes ago, IronMike said:

What exactly do you mean by a unified link 4 code?

Because what the hornet uses for ACLS is not quite the same thing, if you mean that.

Iirc the F-18 could also get AWACS datalink info from Link-4 sources along with their being an option in the SA page for choosing Link-4 as a source but this isn’t implemented yet on our F-18 (the option is x’d out). I could be wrong with my assessment and that option might be for something else Link-4 related.

Edited July 13, 2022 by DSplayer

[Naquaii]

8 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

Iirc the F-18 could also get AWACS datalink info from Link-4 sources along with their being an option in the SA page for choosing Link-4 as a source but this isn’t implemented yet on our F-18 (the option is x’d out). I could be wrong with my assessment and that option might be for something else Link-4 related.

 

Even if that functionality did actually remain in that block of F/A-18C apart from ACLS it's really not something that was used with that block.

As for unifying it between aircraft that's really not critical as there's really no aircraft to aircraft communication apart from in 4C.