Countermeasures S/A and Auto mode questions.

[dporter22]

If the manual says that S/A and Auto modes will automatically select the appropriate countermeasures for the current threat, why does the EW page allow me to step through and select from five S/A and Auto programs?

Do the S/A and Auto modes create a program depending on the threat, or do they only select from the five default or user created programs?

Either way, if these modes are supposed to automatically select the best program, what happens when I select S/A 2, or Auto 4, for example?  Will it use those programs, or will it select another program depending on the threat?

Update:  I just did a test mission and the S/A mode simply dispenses whichever program is selected by the pilot regardless of the threat. When I set it to S/A1 it dispenses Program 1, when I set it to S/A2 it dispenses Program 2, etc. against the same SAM threat.  There doesn't seem to be any automatic determination or dispensing of whichever is the best program.

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by dporter22

[dporter22]

The manual says the S/A and AUTO modes are coming later, so I guess they're still not implemented.

Edited July 11, 2022 by dporter22

[Ephedrin]

Weren‘t they wirking at some point?? I think I used them correctly before.. or do I mistake it for something..

[Phantom711]

As far as I know it works like that:

 

The Dispense switch on the center console must be in ON (otherwise in BYPASS it will release single chaff/flare)

The dispense switch on your HOTAS should be a 3 position switch, where it is spring-loaded to the center position which is simply OFF.

Now you can select 3 modes for the ALE-47: MANUAL, S/A or AUTO.

MANUAL: AFT position of the switch dispenses the selected program, FWD dispenses PROG 5 (always)

S/A: AFT dispenses selected PROG, FWD is S/A consent and dispenses whatever the computer "thinks" is best against the threat you receive on your RWR.

AUTO: AFT is still the manually selected program (i think) and the dispenser will also automatically dispense according threat.

 

Obviously AUTO is pretty wasteful. I use S/A...best of both worlds. You can change the programs in the aircraft, but you have to do it all over for every flight...in order to avoid that, you can either use DiCE or manually manipulate the respective file (which is pretty straight forward as well, but you have to redo it after every DCS update also).

 

So I guess you @dporter22 have always just dispensed the manually selected program. For obvious reasons the S/A and AUTO mode can only work against radar threats not IR-only threats.

The automatic programs are seperate from the manual programs. there are 3 types (one against older SAMs, one against newer SAMs and another one I can´t recall now), You can also manipulate them in the mentioned file.

DCS/mods/FA-18C/Cockpit/Scripts/TEWS/device/CMDS_ALE47

Edited July 11, 2022 by Phantom711

[Bunny Clark]

22 hours ago, dporter22 said:

why does the EW page allow me to step through and select from five S/A and Auto programs?

Because you retain the ability to actuate manual programs in all dispenser modes. S/A and AUTO replace the CMS Forward action, but CMS Aft will always run the Manal program. Here's what the breakdown looks like:

S/A and AUTO both pick from a list of 3 programs which are independent of the Manual programs and are not editable in the aircraft. They can be edited in the CMDS_ALE47.lua file if you want to, same as setting the Manual programs default. The standard three Auto programs look like this:

Quote

-- Threat type 1
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_1] = {}
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_1]["chaff"] = 1
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_1]["flare"] = 0
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_1]["intv"]  = 1.5
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_1]["cycle"] = 4

-- Threat type 2
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_2] = {}
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_2]["chaff"] = 1
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_2]["flare"] = 0
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_2]["intv"]  = 1.0
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_2]["cycle"] = 6

-- Threat type 3
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_3] = {}
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_3]["chaff"] = 1
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_3]["flare"] = 0
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_3]["intv"]  = 0.5
programs[ProgramNames.AUTO_3]["cycle"] = 8

 

[Devastator]

1 hour ago, Bunny Clark said:

Because you retain the ability to actuate manual programs in all dispenser modes. S/A and AUTO replace the CMS Forward action, but CMS Aft will always run the Manal program. Here's what the breakdown looks like:

S/A and AUTO both pick from a list of 3 programs which are independent of the Manual programs and are not editable in the aircraft. They can be edited in the CMDS_ALE47.lua file if you want to, same as setting the Manual programs default. The standard three Auto programs look like this:

 

 

bypass not doing only single flare or chaff? In your picture shows double. Do we have a bug in DCS or the picture is wrong?

[Dragon1-1]

BYP bypasses the CMS completely and simply signals appropriate dispensers to fire. There are two for each CM, so there should be one flare/chaff coming out of each.

[dporter22]

Thanks guys. The manual is not clear on this at all. Nowhere does it say that CMS FORWARD activates consent in S/A mode or that there are three hidden programs that the system chooses from when in S/A or AUTO modes.

From the manual:

• Aft. When in BYPASS mode, this will release one flare. If not in BYPASS mode or OFF, AUTO, S/A, or MAN mode will initiate the program.

• Forward. When in BYPASS mode, this will release one chaff bundle. If not in BYPASS mode or OFF, it will initiate manual program 5.

 

So what it should say is:

- Fwd. When BYPASS is selected two chaff bundles are released.  When ON is selected Program 5 is initiated in MAN mode and consent to dispense is given in S/A mode.  

- Aft. When BYPASS is selected two flares are released. When ON is selected the selected program is initiated when in MAN, S/A, or AUTO modes.

 

It should also say something about pausing dispensing.  In my test flights, I am unable to pause dispensing once a program has been activated in MAN mode, but pressing Fwd pauses dispensing in S/A and AUTO modes.  The problem is that once I've paused dispensing in S/A or AUTO mode by pressing Fwd, there doesn't seem to be a way to unpause, reactivate consent, or reactivate auto dispensing without first initiating the manual program by pressing Aft.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by dporter22

[Bunny Clark]

Yah, the manual is pretty useless. I created the description for my HOTAS guide image based on testing how it worked in game. 

I don't find S/A or AUTO to be of any use at all in the Hornet. I wish it worked more like it does in the Viper where S/A just runs the auto selected program once and then stops. 

[Minsky]

1 hour ago, dporter22 said:

When ON is selected Program 5 is initiated in MAN mode

It is explained on at least two occasions.

Agreed that the manual is inconsistent regarding the number of chaff and flares dispensed in the bypass mode.

As for the rest: manual clearly states that S/A and AUTO are work in progress. No reason to describe missing or unfinished features.

[Phantom711]

True….EDs manual is not helping a whole lot. It didn‘t even get updated even though the features were updated at some point along the line.

 

anyways…I think @Bunny Clarks answer here was really good…especially the depiction. This could be marked as „solved“ or „correct as is“ and/or maybe even made a sticky? 
 

@BIGNEWY? 

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, the manual really needs an update, we're nearing the feature complete status, so it'd be a good time to update it with all the features that were added.

[BIGNEWY]

5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Yeah, the manual really needs an update, we're nearing the feature complete status, so it'd be a good time to update it with all the features that were added.

Hi, we recently mentioned this in another post, we have just taken on a new manual writer and he will be updating them going forward. 

thank you

[Dragon1-1]

Missed that other post, but it's good to hear. Looking forward to updated docs, as neat as the feature videos are, they're bothersome to sift through when just looking for a refresher on what a given switch does.

[dporter22]

So are S/A and AUTO modes currently implemented?

 

[Dragon1-1]

I think so. They might even work right, but what I know for sure is that they can be enabled from the EW page.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Dragon1-1

[Bunny Clark]

22 hours ago, dporter22 said:

So are S/A and AUTO modes currently implemented?

Yes. They may not be finished, but they were added some time ago and haven't been updated since.

[rfxcasey]

On 7/10/2022 at 2:52 PM, dporter22 said:

If the manual says that S/A and Auto modes will automatically select the appropriate countermeasures for the current threat, why does the EW page allow me to step through and select from five S/A and Auto programs?

Do the S/A and Auto modes create a program depending on the threat, or do they only select from the five default or user created programs?

Either way, if these modes are supposed to automatically select the best program, what happens when I select S/A 2, or Auto 4, for example?  Will it use those programs, or will it select another program depending on the threat?

Update:  I just did a test mission and the S/A mode simply dispenses whichever program is selected by the pilot regardless of the threat. When I set it to S/A1 it dispenses Program 1, when I set it to S/A2 it dispenses Program 2, etc. against the same SAM threat.  There doesn't seem to be any automatic determination or dispensing of whichever is the best program.

 

 

Make sure ALR- 67 power is on and dispenser switch is set to middle (on) position (NOT Bypass). Go to EW page, box ALE-47 at the top and hit the 'mode' button at the bottom till it says 'auto 1' etc. under the ALE -47 you boxed at the top of the EW page. See if that works.

FYI: You can manually edit the 'CMDS_ALE47.lua' file in your 'F:\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\FA-18C\Cockpit\Scripts\TEWS\device\' folder manually to change your default programs so you don't have to program them every time you hop in the jet. Program 1 and program 5 are activated with the countermeasures fwd and aft buttons. Just be aware that after every DCS update it will revert back to the default file so make a backup of your changed lua file so you can easily replace it with every DCS update. I have a Powershell script that makes it as simple as double clicking a shortcut. Could probably use a batch file as well.

Currently I have 8 chaff at 1 second intervals on program 1 and 8 flares with 1 second intervals on program 5.

Edited August 1, 2022 by rfxcasey

[dporter22]

Yes, turning on the system works, my question was just whether the automatic selection of the best program in S/A or AUTO was functional and apparently it has not yet been implemented.

[Phantom711]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb dporter22:

Yes, turning on the system works, my question was just whether the automatic selection of the best program in S/A or AUTO was functional and apparently it has not yet been implemented.

Ok…from where do you draw that conclusion when several people explained how it works?

Have you even looked at the .lua file or have you done some testing?

[dporter22]

I draw the conclusion from the manual which says it's not implemented yet, and from the fact that it does not automatically select the best program when in S/A or AUTO modes.  It simply activates whichever program you have selected.

[Phantom711]

Am 8.8.2022 um 19:46 schrieb dporter22:

I draw the conclusion from the manual which says it's not implemented yet, and from the fact that it does not automatically select the best program when in S/A or AUTO modes.  It simply activates whichever program you have selected.

What was your test setup? Against which system?

[Harker]

I draw the conclusion from the manual which says it's not implemented yet, and from the fact that it does not automatically select the best program when in S/A or AUTO modes.  It simply activates whichever program you have selected.

It is implemented. S/A and AUTO are not meant to select the most appropriate Manual program, they select from built-in programs.
The system has no way of knowing which manual program is the best one, since they can be changed by the pilot mid-mission. Thus, it chooses from pre-defined programs that are not accessible from within the cockpit. Normally, they're set up before the mission, according to the expected threats. In DCS, they can be changed by editing the ALE-47.lua file. Hopefully we'll be able to change them using the DTC, when it's implemented.

[Minsky]

I just ran some tests and can confirm that the AUTO is indeed working. So I retract my original "not implemented" statement.

Have one question though. I presume this line means "AUTO mode + MAN program #4", not "AUTO program #4" ?

 

[Phantom711]

@Minsky

Exactly.

you are running in „Auto“ mode, but with the CMS in aft you can run Manual Prog #4.