Less Reliance on YouTube Tutorials

[Northstar98]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Even within the same company I’m sure they were made a different times by different people. Expecting them to all be the same or be reformatted is ridiculous.

I mean, I could do it...

Why do I get the impression that you're only calling it ridiculous because disagreeing with stuff in the wishlist, regardless of what it is is pretty much your mantra, even when you haven't really read the OP.

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I even suspect some have a format taken right from the real manual.

I take it you're not very familiar with real manuals? In the same way that you don't seem to be familiar with DCS manuals?

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Even then expecting them to be identical or get reformatted is ridiculous. 

No it absolutely isn't, most manuals in DCS follow the same formatting, you realise there are these things called templates right?

But this is all beside the point. At the end of the day, manuals that are precise, concise and consitent is pretty much objectively a good thing, regardless of how many times you call it ridiculous.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

What manuals have you been reading then?

Just about every DCS manual includes some basic instruction to flying them - usually at least landing patterns.

A lot… The landing procedure or pattern would be specific to the aircraft so no doubt that’s included. But something simple like what basic controls do? Likely not. Look at the Warbird manuals, which I get the impression are copies if the real thing. They’ll say “keep straight with the rudder” on takeoff. I’m sure we all know that simple piece of text is a vast understatement. Yet the manual isn’t flying instructions, it’s how to operate this specific aircraft. 

5 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

No it absolutely isn't, most manuals in DCS follow the same formatting, you realise there are these things called templates right?

We can see by this discussion that these manuals are already very time consuming to create or even justify having? Yet you seem to want them rewritten. Yeah that’s a ridiculous request. 

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

So sorry I dont see what the problem is, if people dont like videos as tutorials they dont have to use them. 

The problem was clearly laid out in the opening post. It's discouraging to write a lengthy, detailed, researched, logical and rational argument just to be told "don't see what the problem is." The problem here, more simply, is that often the only decent tutorial for a period of time is a video tutorial. Therefore "don't like it don't watch it" is an invalid response. Without the videos and without complete manuals, how is one to learn to use the product they paid a decent sum of money for? It's akin to telling someone they're unworthy of enjoying the product simply because they aren't an auditory/visual learner, or because the video format is inaccessible to them. 

This is not directed at any developer in particular. I have to say that ED's manuals thus far have been pretty good; I can't recall off-hand any glaring issues except some confusing wording here and there. Third-party manuals on the other hand, can be great or they can be a mess, and it suprises me when the messes get through the screening process before a module is released. The manuals should at least clearly cover the currently functioning systems in such a way that the user can read them, fire up DCS, and put what they read into practice, without much difficulty (relatively speaking, there obviously is a learning curve in DCS). Some manuals quite simply don't do that, and we're left with nothing but video tutorials from a pre-release build. "So don't watch the videos." Okay, I guess I'll shelve the module until better written tutorials come out, whenever that will be. 

This thread seems to have been derailed with various side arguments and some arguments continuing for the sake of arguing, which isn't particularly helping things here 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Nealius

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

At the end of the day, manuals that are precise, concise and consitent is pretty much objectively a good thing, regardless of how many times you call it ridiculous.

The real world isn’t perfect so why should DCS be? 

[BIGNEWY]

8 minutes ago, Nealius said:

The problem was clearly laid out in the opening post. It's discouraging to write a lengthy, detailed, researched, logical and rational argument just to be told "don't see what the problem is." The problem here, more simply, is that often the only decent tutorial for a period of time is a video tutorial.

I dont have time to write long replies to every post, so I replied with my opinion in a short reply, my opinion is the same. 

I have explained our manual writer has just been replaced. 
I have asked the team to check the manuals links on the online link. 

 

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Without the videos and without complete manuals, how is one to learn to use the product they paid a decent sum of money for?

You are aware these modules are in Early Access right? If this sort of thing bothers you then perhaps wait until they are finalized. I somewhat avoid EA and Open Beta myself just for this reason. But like I said earlier, I’m actually satisfied with the Hornet’s documentation progress through EA and it might encourage me to try EA more. 

[Northstar98]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A lot… The landing procedure or pattern would be specific to the aircraft so no doubt that’s included.

So, I was right then?

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But something simple like what basic controls do? Likely not.

"Likely not"? So you don't know?

What's this then? Taken from the P-47D manual (ironically a manual that's formatted consitently with other warbird manuals).

I don't know about you but "conventional stick is used to manage aircraft roll and pitch. Pedals control the yaw of the aircraft" sounds a lot like a description of basic controls, it's just missing a diagram of what those motions are.

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yet the manual isn’t flying instructions, it’s how to operate this specific aircraft.

So, like when I said "Just about every DCS manual includes some basic instruction to flying them" then?

Before you reply to me, can you please read what I'm typing?

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

We can see by this discussion that these manuals are already very time consuming to create or even justify having?

Even justify having? Seriously? Name me a game that doesn't come with a manual.

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yet you seem to want them rewritten. Yeah that’s a ridiculous request. 

I don't want manuals rewritten, I'd prefer to see them consistent. You make a template (hell just copy and paste the F-16 manual, delete the text in the procedures, and replace it with text from the Hornet manual).

Edited July 27, 2022 by Northstar98

[Northstar98]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The real world isn’t perfect so why should DCS be? 

Did you honestly just type that?

Yes, let's intentionally omit information, because "something something, ????, real world isn't perfect".

Can you like, stop?

18 minutes ago, Nealius said:

The problem was clearly laid out in the opening post. It's discouraging to write a lengthy, detailed, researched, logical and rational argument just to be told "don't see what the problem is." The problem here, more simply, is that often the only decent tutorial for a period of time is a video tutorial. Therefore "don't like it don't watch it" is an invalid response. Without the videos and without complete manuals, how is one to learn to use the product they paid a decent sum of money for? It's akin to telling someone they're unworthy of enjoying the product simply because they aren't an auditory/visual learner, or because the video format is inaccessible to them. 

This is not directed at any developer in particular. I have to say that ED's manuals thus far have been pretty good; I can't recall off-hand any glaring issues except some confusing wording here and there. Third-party manuals on the other hand, can be great or they can be a mess, and it suprises me when the messes get through the screening process before a module is released. The manuals should at least clearly cover the currently functioning systems in such a way that the user can read them, fire up DCS, and put what they read into practice, without much difficulty (relatively speaking, there obviously is a learning curve in DCS). Some manuals quite simply don't do that, and we're left with nothing but video tutorials from a pre-release build. "So don't watch the videos." Okay, I guess I'll shelve the module until better written tutorials come out, whenever that will be.

Absolutely 100% this.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

What's this then?

That’s a schematic of the controls not instructions on “how to fly”. I think we are losing something in translation…

[Northstar98]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s a schematic of the controls not instructions on “how to fly”. I think we are losing something in translation…

Or somebody isn't reading...

Seriously you said: "But something simple like what basic controls do? Likely not."

I then gave you a manual excerpt of exactly that.

I'm gonna stop here with you, because this is just ridiculous (huh, ironic that one) - I mean, you're somehow managing to straw man yourself here and it's just derailing an otherwise completely reasonable request.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Northstar98

[BIGNEWY]

Updated the DCS World Manual has been added to online link

thanks

[SharpeXB]

14 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Name me a game that doesn't come with a manual.

I just got a very sophisticated and full fidelity airliner for another sim. As far as I can tell it has no manual. Of course you can just got get the real thing and it would suffice. None of the civy sim aircraft I have come with manuals. They have “handbooks” for operations but not the sort of detailed manuals DCS has. 
The “other” combat flight sim out there didn’t have a manual for years and that was because the cost of it was hard to justify considering how much user-created content was available. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by SharpeXB

[BIGNEWY]

Keep it DCS related please, rules can be found at the top of the forum. 

thanks

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I don't want manuals rewritten, I'd prefer to see them consistent.

Well the manuals are already written so I’m not sure what the point is in asking for this. 

[Northstar98]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Well the manuals are already written so I’m not sure what the point is in asking for this. 

Maybe you could try reading what's being said? And hell, perhaps what's your saying while you're at it?

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The “other” combat flight sim out there didn’t have a manual for years and that was because the cost of it was hard to justify considering how much user-created content was available. 

But it does have a manual now, almost like having them available is absolutely justified?

[Nealius]

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You are aware these modules are in Early Access right?

Ah yes, the Jedi mind trick argument. Everything is magically resolved by reminding someone that it's Early Access. The catch-all that excuses everything absolutely. 

Early Access still has standards, discussed elsewhere. Why are these standards not also applied to the manuals?

Furthermore why do you continue with pointless, illogical arguments that are besides the point? Stop derailing my thread. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Nealius

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Early Access still has standards, discussed elsewhere.

Sure, it does:

“What is DCS World Early Access?

Early Access is an option for you to play this module in an early state, but it will be incomplete with bugs.”

[BIGNEWY]

At this point you have given your feedback, if we are just going to have the usual back and forth between you guys we can close this thread

[silverdevil]

2 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Furthermore why do you continue with pointless, illogical arguments that are besides the point? Stop derailing my thread. 

i apologize. my few comments were not directed at the OP. just some replies and lots of DCS forum replies in general. so many times the posts end in a monty python skit that has little to do with the original post. courteous and thoughtful discussion is always a good thing. 

Quote

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

― Mark Twain