option to hide propeller for VR Motion Smoothing

[SkateZilla]

4 hours ago, Svsmokey said:

That does not comport with my experience , nor does it with what Steam says...

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/250820/view/2898585530113853534

 

of course Steam would take something and change the name to be mis-leading.

ATW ASW RP and now SteamVR Motion Smoothing.

Everyone else's API has motion smoothing as a filter that scans jitter values of rendered frames and removes the high jitter value frames to stop the image from bouncing and micro flickering on 2D Screens.

[Baldrick33]

5 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

of course Steam would take something and change the name to be mis-leading.

ATW ASW RP and now SteamVR Motion Smoothing.
 

I think they just used a term that more people new to VR would understand. For the layman (most of us) it is what these fancy acronyms do, makes the motion appear smoother by rendering at the refresh rate and interpolating frames (none of which the VR user really needs to understand)

[Rosebud47]

It´s really a tricky question about motion smoothing, as there is nearly nothing to be found, what could explain precisely or backup observations.

The explanation found on steam is not quite technical and more commercial or common "easy" explanation, but that´s OK, as it is true, what Baldrick is saying, that none of the VR user really need to understand.

Going with OpenXR by the mod, there is no ´Motion smoothing´ option to be found, like with SteamVR, beside the ( motion- or asynchroneous- ) reprojection.

I understood motion smoothing in SteamVR as an option to smooth the head movements, respectively body movement in VR.
If the option is active and you´re sitting in the cockpit, just watch the panels in the cockpit, while moving your head from left to right. You will see that the panels are out of focus and a little blurry, during the movement of the head and get back in focus and sharp, when the headmovement stops. But it is a smooth movement without stutter.

If you´re doing the same movement in the cockpit, without motion smoothing activated in SteamVR, the panels in the cockpit stay sharp and in focus through out the movement, but it could appear some micro-stutter during the movement - it´s not such smooth.

Reprojection-techniques care for the overall frame rates in the game, in my understanding - no matter if you move head or body in VR or sitting /standing still while flying with 500 Knots over downtown Beirut.

That´s at least my observation and something I´ve read about years ago, which made sense to me.

[Baldrick33]

As far as I understand it each platform has its own form of reprojection/motion smoothing

E.g. Oculus, WMR, Vive/Index, Pimax

The Vive/Index version is SteamVR motion smoothing, WMR has motion vector reprojection, Oculus has ASW, not sure about Pimax

To simplify things for users with WMR devices, the ability to control WMR motion vector reprojection was added to the SteamVR dashboard. Once added the SteamVR motion smoothing option now control motion vector in WMR. Prior to that you had to edit a text file to set motion vector reprojection.

Each method has their own advantages but they are proprietary to the platform and cannot be used on other platforms.

The phrase motion smoothing in VR can be applied to any of these methods as far as I can tell.

 

[Svsmokey]

In my experience , Steam motion smoothing on "auto" locks frames to exactly one-half or full refresh rate with the G2 . It works very well with an AMD gpu , as motion reprojection does not .

Edited August 8, 2022 by Svsmokey

[Baldrick33]

23 minutes ago, Svsmokey said:

In my experience , Steam motion smoothing on "auto" locks frames to exactly one-half or full refresh rate with the G2 . It works very well with an AMD gpu , as motion reprojection does not .

 

I am a bit confused by that. The WMR software on auto reprojection will do exactly that - half refresh (reprojection on) or full refresh (reprojection off). My understanding is that native SteamVR headsets will use SteamVR's own motion smoothing method, whereas with WMR headsets SteamVR can be used to enable/disable motion smoothing, but SteamVR will delegate the task to the native WMR software that manages reprojection on the device (via the WMR for SteamVR bridge). I don't believe SteamVR's motion smoothing software works directly with anything other than SteamVR devices (Vive, Index etc.)

[Rosebud47]

Not sure if that is the case, Baldrick. But I´m also not quite sure, if what I think is right. 

What could be told for sure is, that OpenXR does not have a ´motion smoothing´ option neither in the OpenXR developer tool nor through the Toolkit, just OpenXR API´s reprojection method ( whatever they name it ) to improve performance in VR.

But if we would want to go to the bottom line, it could be approved by checking out the settings in SteamVR and observing the results. It´s easy to switch with the OpenCompositor Tool between SteamVR and OpenXR back and forth.

I also don´t think, that SteamVR ´controls´ WMR reprojection in the way you described above. It´s more that the reprojection method depends on the API the application is using.

If you´re running OpenXR, it´s OpenXR reprojection, if you´re running OpenVR it´s SteamVR reprojection. ´Windows Mixed Reality for SteamVR´ just makes a WMR ( OpenXR ) headset compatible to run under SteamVR ( OpenVR ) and its interface, options and algorythms.

If find some time and mood during the week, we could check SteamVRs options for Motion Smoothing and Reprojection and compare the findings to finally get some clarity about Motion Smoothing. 

Recently I got deinstalled ´SteamVR for Windows Mixed Reality´, but could reinstall it again for some testing with the G2.

 

vor 50 Minuten schrieb Svsmokey:

In my experience , Steam motion smoothing on "auto" locks frames to exactly one-half or full refresh rate with the G2 . It works very well with an AMD gpu , as motion reprojection does not .

 

That confused me as well, as reprojection does the frame halving, independently of which GPU is used. Let alone the mixed up names for the techniques are confusing in the conversation.

Edit: Skatezilla´s theory about Motion Smoothing being a filter to smooth out movements ( head/body movements ) in VR makes sense and distinguishes clearly Motion Smoothing from Reprojection. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Rosebud47

[Baldrick33]

@Rosebud47 I have never found a definitive answer to whether SteamVR motion smoothing adds something above and beyond setting WMR reprojection on (forced or auto). There certainly is a difference using OpenXR and OpenVR with reprojection to suggest it isn’t all being handled by WMR alone but whether that is how the rendering by each is presented to the WMR layer it is beyond my mental capacity!
 

[Svsmokey]

Amd gpu's drivers do not handle WMR  motion reprojection well . At all . But Steam motion smoothing runs very well indeed on the G2 with my 6800xt . I have no idea how it works , beyond reprojection , but it works , and is a nice workaround for what would otherwise be a VR problem for AMD users .

[Rosebud47]

coming back to the prop/rotor issue, it obviously only appears on my side by running OpenXR AND reprojection. With reprojection deactivated by OpenXR the issue is gone.

It´s mostly visible with Apache and Hind, where the rotor interferes with the canopy and make parts of canopy flickering massively. In most warbrids the issue is not so much / not noticable to me, like the Spitfire or the P-47, but with the A-8 Anton, the horizon line flickers a lot, while watching through the propeller. here also: without reprojection the issue is gone.

The issue is also noticable on the edges of wings. Without reprojection all this flickering is gone - unfortunately, DCS is not enjoyable to me without reprojection.

A year ago, a smart guy (Mnenomic) made some mods ( "VR friendly prop" - mods ) for the warbirds by creating more transparent textures for the props, but unfortunately due to some newer release of DCS the mods don´t work anymore. 

To me it appears that the issue is only related to the OpenXR mod and how it handles reprojection in DCS.  As I won´t go back to SteamVR ( openVR ), the only thing left to do is waiting for a new iteration of the OpenXR mod and see if it could fix the issue.

[SkateZilla]

6 hours ago, Rosebud47 said:

coming back to the prop/rotor issue, it obviously only appears on my side by running OpenXR AND reprojection. With reprojection deactivated by OpenXR the issue is gone.

It´s mostly visible with Apache and Hind, where the rotor interferes with the canopy and make parts of canopy flickering massively. In most warbrids the issue is not so much / not noticable to me, like the Spitfire or the P-47, but with the A-8 Anton, the horizon line flickers a lot, while watching through the propeller. here also: without reprojection the issue is gone.

The issue is also noticable on the edges of wings. Without reprojection all this flickering is gone - unfortunately, DCS is not enjoyable to me without reprojection.

A year ago, a smart guy (Mnenomic) made some mods ( "VR friendly prop" - mods ) for the warbirds by creating more transparent textures for the props, but unfortunately due to some newer release of DCS the mods don´t work anymore. 

To me it appears that the issue is only related to the OpenXR mod and how it handles reprojection in DCS.  As I won´t go back to SteamVR ( openVR ), the only thing left to do is waiting for a new iteration of the OpenXR mod and see if it could fix the issue.

As stated previously.

this happens because fields are being thrown away.

removing the props doesnt fix the problem, its not even a bandaid tbh, its a dont look here and you wont see it solution.

Moving to MC and VKN would likely solve such issues by allowing DCS to run at a higher FPS and thus not have the VR API Throw away so many fields.

 

The VR friendly props modified the Disc and side aspect textures.

Such textures arent used anymore. the props 3D Models are blurred directly by shaders. As is the AH64 Rotors

Edited August 9, 2022 by SkateZilla

[Rosebud47]

Removing the props completely would be a no-go for me. ED anyways would advice to remove any mods ( OpenXR ) to solve the issue.

I also wouldn´t rely on ED upgrading the engine with MC and VKN ayntime soon -despite MC and VKN is something everyone would benefit from and is demanded and asked for so long and so many times, they prefer to develop stuff like the Mariana Map, no one demands or is interested in using.

Well, I don´t get it, but let´s see what the next big thing is, instead of improving the game engine.

 

[Schmidtfire]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:48 PM, SkateZilla said:

As stated previously.

this happens because fields are being thrown away.

removing the props doesnt fix the problem, its not even a bandaid tbh, its a dont look here and you wont see it solution.

Moving to MC and VKN would likely solve such issues by allowing DCS to run at a higher FPS and thus not have the VR API Throw away so many fields.

 

The VR friendly props modified the Disc and side aspect textures.

Such textures arent used anymore. the props 3D Models are blurred directly by shaders. As is the AH64 Rotors

 

But.. the propeller, or rather texturing of propeller is why this is a particular issue with DCS WWII in VR. While we can discuss origin of the issue back and forth, the solution is still making the propellers and their textures VR friendly. It works great on the P-51D compared to the other props.

I think you might overthink this issue a bit. There are several mods out there to fix this issue. It shouldn't be difficult to add a Special Option for "VR friendly" propeller textures. If anyone could run DCS 90fps without reprojection, we would not have an issue in the first place  But we can't and that's why there is a need for a fix. And while such textures might not be used anymore, why couldn't it be an option for VR?          

[Mars Exulte]

10 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

And while such textures might not be used anymore, why couldn't it be an option for VR?          

 Texture mods don't work anymore because it doesn't have those textures. It can't be an ''option'' because... they're not there. They do not exist. Therefore it cannot be an option. Texture transparency is not how they're doing it now, based on what Skate just said.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Mars Exulte

[hazzer]

Just chiming in on this thread to say that the prop effects in the sim are something that you'd get through a video camera, clearly a cinematic effect and not what your eyes see. 

I can live with that, although ideally they'd be barely visible apart from when running at low rpm. 

The issue now experienced in vr is that the reflections/prop effect seems to be slightly different in each eye making them stand out more. Making the mosquito rather horrible to fly. 

[Dangerzone]

1 hour ago, hazzer said:

Just chiming in on this thread to say that the prop effects in the sim are something that you'd get through a video camera, clearly a cinematic effect and not what your eyes see. 

I can live with that, although ideally they'd be barely visible apart from when running at low rpm. 

The issue now experienced in vr is that the reflections/prop effect seems to be slightly different in each eye making them stand out more. Making the mosquito rather horrible to fly. 

There's also problems with reprojection / motion smoothing. I have things such as the HUD's text move back and forth as the reprojection appears to be trying to anticipate it's movement along with the blades and it becomes shaky. 

[hazzer]

Just now, Dangerzone said:

There's also problems with reprojection / motion smoothing. I have things such as the HUD's text move back and forth as the reprojection appears to be trying to anticipate it's movement along with the blades and it becomes shaky. 

I have ran dcs only briefly with motion smoothing before having to dissable it. 

The props in vr certainly look bag regardless of motion smoothing or not and having an option to change the effect would be helpful for everyone's preference. 

Cinematic - as they are now, albeit with the weird lighting issue resolved for vr

Realistic - shouldn't be as visible when at higher rpms. 

Invisible when running - for fps