Pitch Trim Strange Behaviour

[Rudel_chw]

Hello,

I've noticed that my Mirage F1 spawns with about 22-24% pitch up trim already applied. The Controls overlay shows it also, like this:

 

 

This happens on both on cold start or on hot starts. The pitch curves of my Hotas are normal and it is at neutral position:

 

 

Has anyone else noticed this?  Seems like the aircraft had a built-in takeoff trim, but the documentation doesn't mentions it.

Thanks for any help with this,

 

Eduardo

[MAXsenna]

Yes. It happens for me too. Three different sticks, one is FFB. I use no curves.
I bet it has to do with the issue that you can't use the whole range of the stick.

Cheers!

[Rudel_chw]

2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Yes. It happens for me too. Three different sticks, one is FFB. I use no curves.
I bet it has to do with the issue that you can't use the whole range of the stick.

 

Thanks for posting, it's kind of a relief to know that it isn't just my DCS.

 

The whole pitch axis range of my Hotas seems to be displaced downward: I can't reach the top of the axis range, while the Indicator shows that I'm at the bottom of the range when in fact the stick has not bottomed yet.

[MAXsenna]

5 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Thanks for posting, it's kind of a relief to know that it isn't just my DCS.

 

The whole pitch axis range of my Hotas seems to be displaced downward: I can't reach the top of the axis range, while the Indicator shows that I'm at the bottom of the range when in fact the stick has not bottomed yet.

Yeah! It's the same for all my sticks. And my throttle has a strange "deadzone" too, You do? You have the Cougar, right?
Anyway, I'm sure it will be fixed.

Cheers!

BTW! I'm testing out your ME templates! Thanks a bunch!

[Rudel_chw]

13 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Yeah! It's the same for all my sticks.

 

I have here a very short video with my pitch axis behaviour ..  not shown the real movement of my Hotas, when the controls indicator shows I'm full Nose Up, it actually still has 20% more travel availble that the F1 does not register:

 

 

13 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

And my throttle has a strange "deadzone" too, You do? You have the Cougar, right?

 

Yes, I have a Cougar, but my throttle does not have any strange issue .. I use this setting to have the afterburner coincide with the physical detent of my Throttle:

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

BTW! I'm testing out your ME templates! Thanks a bunch!

 

 You are most welcome, I use them a lot, as whenever I edit a new Mission I first see what parts of it can be done first as Templates, so they can be reused later .. it really helps in the long run to be more effective at making new missions.

 

Cheers, and lets hope Aerges fixes this soon .. it is not a mortal bug, but hopefully its easy to fix.

[MAXsenna]

@Rudel_chw

For this test, I use Virpil's Joystick Tester.

1. Shows how much I'm trimmed when I enter the aircraft. Isn't the little dot in the middle supposed to show how much you're trimmed, like in other modules. When I trim, it just stays in the same place, while the stick indicator moves. Maybe they got the two mixed up, and that's the issue?

2. Shows, after if moved my Warthog throttle from cutoff to idle, right before the animation of the throttle moves/controls indicator, and the RPM increases. Virpil shows 87%, which means, 13% of the throttle axis is wasted (18% if you exclude the afterburner part). And yes, I use the excellent afterburner setting. And that works perfectly.
Are you saying that you have the full range from idle to the afterburner stop with your Cougar? I might have to test my other throttles then.

3. Shows when I pull the stick until the animation of the stick stops/controls indicator stops. Virpil shows 75%. Which means the stick is very sensitive, because 25% of the axis is wasted.

Of course they will fix everything we report. EA is EA, I'm totally fine with that!
I love this module!
Cheers!

 

null

null

[IvanK]

I see the same with CH Stick.

 

[Rudel_chw]

35 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Are you saying that you have the full range from idle to the afterburner stop with your Cougar? I might have to test my other throttles then.

 

I don't have the Virpil software, and unfortunately the Cougar joystick analyzer can't run concurrent with DCS, but my throttle feels correct to me .. here is a short video of how it looks from my viewpoint:

 

 

[MAXsenna]

Pull the throttle ALL the way back. Is it completely responsive there? I have about 1 cm that won't move the animation in the sim. But the Virpil software shows it's moving.

Huh! Seems it's not available anymore. That's too bad.

EDIT: Duh! It comes with the full package of their software of course.
I don't have any Virpil devices, but I still use this software.

https://support.virpil.com/en/support/solutions/articles/47001225980-vpc-software-setup-version-20220720-

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by MAXsenna

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Pull the throttle ALL the way back. Is it completely responsive there? I have about 1 cm that won't move the animation in the sim.

 

On mine it responds as soon as I move the throttle, maybe its a hardware or windows calibration  issue. The pitch issue is more clear, as it is DCS own control indicator the one that shows the Pitch axis not on neutral position.

[MAXsenna]

16 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

On mine it responds as soon as I move the throttle, maybe its a hardware or windows calibration  issue. The pitch issue is more clear, as it is DCS own control indicator the one that shows the Pitch axis not on neutral position.

It's perfect in any other modules, and I have never done any Windows calibration. Don't think ones supposed to but I did calibrate it when I got the DeltaSim upgrade through the TM Calibration tool, so it could be a Warthog thing. Others have reported it too. Will check with other devices I have. The Warthog has a cutoff detent that works in the module, so it's a little strange now. 

Anyway, thanks for your input! 

[sedenion]

On 8/15/2022 at 2:46 AM, Rudel_chw said:

On mine it responds as soon as I move the throttle, maybe its a hardware or windows calibration  issue. The pitch issue is more clear, as it is DCS own control indicator the one that shows the Pitch axis not on neutral position.

Look better, this is not hardware related, there is actually 10-12% dead-zone at throttle lower bound. And this is not related to axis positive or negative raw value, I tried reversed values the problem still the same. (I think Windows calibration is a pure cosmetic since pretty long times now, modern devices deals directly via HID drivers telling axes min and max values)

Edited August 16, 2022 by sedenion

[Hiob]

I haven't noticed anything weird with the stick (doesn't mean there isn't something), but I have the same issue with the throttle.

The first ~10% of the physical is not registert by the F1. In the controls menu and other modules it is, so it is clearly a thing of the F1.

Not a big issue, but slightly irritating at times.

I haven't tried the AB detend feature from the special options. Maybe that shifts the whole axis?

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

I haven't tried the AB detend feature from the special options. Maybe that shifts the whole axis?

It doesn't.

Also, minor unimportant issue, the line for the afterburner on the controls indicator, will not reflect the special settings, and be a little off.

[felixx75]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

I haven't noticed anything weird with the stick (doesn't mean there isn't something), but I have the same issue with the throttle.

The first ~10% of the physical is not registert by the F1. In the controls menu and other modules it is, so it is clearly a thing of the F1.

Not a big issue, but slightly irritating at times.

I haven't tried the AB detend feature from the special options. Maybe that shifts the whole axis?

This is because the thrust lever counts the distance between idle and cutoff. In the airplane, the end is at idle, although the throttle "thinks" it is at cutoff. The first ~10% is the path from cutoff to idle. Aerges would only have to limit the axis to idle and cover the rest of the way via a "switch".
And btw. I have also a problem with the Pitch. When pitching up, the last few centimeters are not recognized. I.e. at about 85-90% pitch up on my physical stick, the virtual stick in the aircraft is already at 100%. Pitch down it is not so pronounced. There is only at maybe 95%+ end.

Edited August 16, 2022 by felixx75

[MAXsenna]

6 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

This is because the thrust lever counts the distance between idle and cutoff. In the airplane, the end is at idle, although the throttle "thinks" it is at cutoff. The first ~10% is the path from cutoff to idle. Aerges would only have to limit the axis to idle and cover the rest of the way via a "switch".

That's probably it.
The switch works though. On my Warthog at least.

Cheers!

[Squidfall]

Hi. I've bought the F1 a few days ago and while it's very quickly becoming one of my favorite modules, I have the same "pitch-trim-problem".

When I spawn into the plane (CE or EE, cold or hot, doesn't matter) there's already a huge amount of pitch trim aplied (also visible on the F2 external view) although the trim indicator shows the pitch is leveled (pic 1). If I trim the pitch back to the center, the pitch indicator moves off center (pic 2).
 

Quote

The whole pitch axis range of my Hotas seems to be displaced downward: I can't reach the top of the axis range, while the Indicator shows that I'm at the bottom of the range when in fact the stick has not bottomed yet.

Same thing for me unless I "trim" the pitch back to center. Using a Warthog Stick & Throttle.

 

[fausete]

Hi,

Unless you're experiencing excessive pitch behaviour, it's working as intended. It's simply that the indicator in the cockpit and the indicator in the ctrl+enter view are not showing the same scale (as the up and down travel of the stabilator are not equal).

[Squidfall]

Thanks for the reply! Seemed a bit strange at first, that the aircraft spawns with that much up elevator and that you have to trim it all the way back down everytime to get a level flight, but if this is normal behaviour, I can stop worrying that something is wrong with my installation/controllers and get back to enjoying the module.

[Rudel_chw]

6 hours ago, fausete said:

it's working as intended. It's simply that the indicator in the cockpit and the indicator in the ctrl+enter view are not showing the same scale (as the up and down travel of the stabilator are not equal).

this behavior is confusing for the user, and its the only DCS aircraft that behaves like this, how could be intended that the aircraft spawns with so much trim already applied?