IFF?

[Badger1-1]

Hey Guys,

 

just wondering if the IFF will ever be modeled?  Because its not showing in the to do thread from Aerges.

 

Was too lazy too look for another thread with the same question like 99% here do so

 

Thanks

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, Badger1-1 said:

Hey Guys,

just wondering if the IFF will ever be modeled?  Because its not showing in the to do thread from Aerges.

Was too lazy too look for another thread with the same question like 99% here do so

Thanks

AFAIK, the F1 CE that we have in DCS did not have an IFF interrogator in real life either, so there is nothing to model.

Edited August 21, 2022 by QuiGon

[Badger1-1]

Stupid question maybe but whats the big iff panel for then?

 

Edit: I understand that the interrogator is lacking, but the IFF Panel we have still allows others to see as as red or blue...so this should be functional

Edited August 21, 2022 by Badger1-1

[hi41000]

the iff is for your own aircraft

to prevent friendly radars from saying your hostile and friendly sams from blasting you from the skies

Edited August 21, 2022 by hi41000

[Badger1-1]

Yes I know but is it modelled?

[hi41000]

[felixx75]

In DCS in general, a very simplified IFF is implemented. You can only switch the system on or off and this also has corresponding effects in various modules. However, i don't know if this is already the case in the F1 and I haven't tested it yet.

[Badger1-1]

I know what an IFF is and how it works, Im asking if it works in the F1 since Redkite said its not modelled

 

Edit: Just saw the manual pic, so there is my question again: Why would you not simulate it, basic on off like in all of DCS except maybe the Jf17 would be fine.

 

Thats what I wanted to know from the start, will they just never do it or is it to come?

Edited August 21, 2022 by Badger1-1

[razo+r]

It is simulated exactly like most others in DCS. It is always on regardless of the switch positions. 

[Badger1-1]

Lets hope so  thanks

[felixx75]

5 hours ago, razo+r said:

It is simulated exactly like most others in DCS. It is always on regardless of the switch positions. 

Did you test it? In the M2000C you have to turn it on (F-18 too, I think).

[razo+r]

M2000, F18, F16 (I think) and JF-17 are the only ones (unless I missed one) in which you need to turn it on. All others are always on and always giving a good return even if the systems isnt even compatible. 

2 hours ago, felixx75 said:

Did you test it? In the M2000C you have to turn it on (F-18 too, I think).

 

[Badger1-1]

I can see that despite you all being the pros and nerds you think you are, nobody really has a clue

[QuiGon]

19 hours ago, Badger1-1 said:

Stupid question maybe but whats the big iff panel for then?

Edit: I understand that the interrogator is lacking, but the IFF Panel we have still allows others to see as as red or blue...so this should be functional

DCS doesn't model IFF transponders (the responding side of IFF) at all. This is THE biggest gripe I have with DCS and its simulation of military aircraft. The simulation of IFF transponders is totally non existent for no reason. Other military flight sims do a much better job at that.

The only exception to this is the JF-17 as Deka did actually model the IFF transponder there, but of course it only works between JF-17s and not with other aircraft types. All other aircraft just pretend their IFF transponder is always ON and set up correctly. This even applies to aircraft that don't even have an IFF transponder or have one that is totally incompatible with todays interrogators (like the Christen Eagle and the WW2 warbirds). You can use your Viper/Hornet and successfully interrogate a Christen Eagle or a BF-109, which is kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

Not having IFF transponders modeled takes a lot away from modern air warfare, as proper IFF procedures and the depending ROEs are a huge factor, as IFF systems can be set up incorrectly or not working at all (e.g. because of battle damage), making IFF less reliable IRL than it is in DCS. In DCS it is just always magically working, set up correctly and thus 100% reliable, which is not realistic.

Sorry if this turned a bit into a rant, but it's a topic that is really frustrating me, which is why I createded a thread about this years ago (it's a bit outdated now), hoping for at least some kind of IFF transponder functionality, but nothing has changed so far:

Edited August 22, 2022 by QuiGon

[Northstar98]

6 hours ago, QuiGon said:

DCS doesn't model IFF transponders (the responding side of IFF) at all. This is THE biggest gripe I have with DCS and its simulation of military aircraft. The simulation of IFF transponders is totally non existent for no reason. Other military flight sims do a much better job at that.

The only exception to this is the JF-17 as Deka did actually model the IFF transponder there, but of course it only works between JF-17s and not with other aircraft types. All other aircraft just pretend their IFF transponder is always ON and set up correctly. This even applies to aircraft that don't even have an IFF transponder or have one that is totally incompatible with todays interrogators (like the Christen Eagle and the WW2 warbirds). You can use your Viper/Hornet and successfully interrogate a Christen Eagle or a BF-109, which is kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

Sorry if this turned a bit into a rant, but it's a topic that is really frustrating me, which is why I createded a thread about this years ago, hoping for at least some kind of IFF transponder functionality, but nothing has changed so far:

Absolutely agreed.
 

Spoiler

For NATO Mk XII systems (the system used in the F1 and the majority of full-fidelity modules):

Modes 1 and 2 work in the same way as mode 3, which is just the military term for the civilian mode A (just mode 1 has half the number of digits and a smaller range), absolutely nothing classified about any of them.

When you interrogate a certain mode(s) and code(s), you'll get either of the following:

• Reply with matching mode and code = positive (friendly - though note these can be spoofed) reply.
• Reply with matching mode, but not code = ambiguous/unknown reply.
• No reply should be self-explanatory.

For mode 4 so long as the interrogator and the interrogated have:

• Mode 4 enabled
• Belong to the same coalition (representing encryption, the only thing classified here, which DCS already does)
• The same key selected (within the IFF policy determined by the mission editor, 99% of the time that'll probably just be key A for the mission duration)
• Transponders and interrogators operational (i.e master mode to LOW/NORM, IFF Mode 4 control switch on and interrogator & transponder not damaged or zeroed/codes deleted).

Then you get a friendly reply. If any one of those conditions aren't met then you get no reply.

As far as replies go, DCS already does positive and no replies (it just doesn't do cockpit indications for the aircraft being interrogated, be they lights or audible tones, same thing for warnings).

For unknown replies:

• The Tomcat will only present the bottom bar (instead of both - which is for a positive reply) - this also applies to the Phantom.
• The F-16 will present a yellow box with the mode number enclosed (instead of the green circle with the mode number enclosed for a positive/friendly reply).
• The F/A-18 will maintain an unknown/ambiguous HAFU symbol.

Only one I'm not sure about is the Mirage 2000C.

The F-16 and Mirage 2000 already do range/angle uncertainties so not much to worry about that and most modules have their IFF controls be interactable (they just serve no function).

 

For the Soviet Kremniy-2 system (as in the MiG-21bis, MiG-23MLA possibly the MiG-19 (?)), I'm more uncertain about the case of when the interrogator and interrogated are equipped with a Kremniy-2 system, but have different codes selected. I'm unsure whether no reply or an ambiguous reply should be generated and if the latter, how it's presented, if at all. Positive identification however should happen like with mode 4.

Parol (Mi-8, Mi-24P, MiG-29, Su-25, Su-27/33) is a bit more obscure, I know there's at least a power switch for the transponder and a mode dial with 4 modes (automatic, KD, ±15 and KP). I'm going to assume that so long as aircraft belong to the same side, the system is on, undamaged and not zeroized/codes deleted and the same mode is selected you get a positive reply otherwise you either get an unknown or no reply.

A decent amount of information about them can be found here.

I think that covers all IFF systems currently present in DCS.

 

The only real problem here is in the case of aircraft belonging to the same side not having compatible transponder systems, but in that case, we could have something like voice chat's custom radios for custom transponders, interfaced in a GUI in the same fashion as voice chat.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Northstar98

[BeastyBaiter]

On 8/22/2022 at 5:13 AM, QuiGon said:

DCS doesn't model IFF transponders (the responding side of IFF) at all. This is THE biggest gripe I have with DCS and its simulation of military aircraft. The simulation of IFF transponders is totally non existent for no reason. Other military flight sims do a much better job at that.

The only exception to this is the JF-17 as Deka did actually model the IFF transponder there, but of course it only works between JF-17s and not with other aircraft types. All other aircraft just pretend their IFF transponder is always ON and set up correctly. This even applies to aircraft that don't even have an IFF transponder or have one that is totally incompatible with todays interrogators (like the Christen Eagle and the WW2 warbirds). You can use your Viper/Hornet and successfully interrogate a Christen Eagle or a BF-109, which is kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

Not having IFF transponders modeled takes a lot away from modern air warfare, as proper IFF procedures and the depending ROEs are a huge factor, as IFF systems can be set up incorrectly or not working at all (e.g. because of battle damage), making IFF less reliable IRL than it is in DCS. In DCS it is just always magically working, set up correctly and thus 100% reliable, which is not realistic.

Sorry if this turned a bit into a rant, but it's a topic that is really frustrating me, which is why I createded a thread about this years ago (it's a bit outdated now), hoping for at least some kind of IFF transponder functionality, but nothing has changed so far:

 

Lack of reliable IFF does change rules of engagement pretty substantially. I've toyed around on one of the cold war servers a bit with the Mirage F1 and basically you have to be in guns range before you can shoot anyone. That's kind of a problem for a high speed brick. On a related note, I've never been shot down by an enemy while flying the F1 in MP... I've been shot down many times in it though.

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, BeastyBaiter said:

Lack of reliable IFF does change rules of engagement pretty substantially. I've toyed around on one of the cold war servers a bit with the Mirage F1 and basically you have to be in guns range before you can shoot anyone. That's kind of a problem for a high speed brick. On a related note, I've never been shot down by an enemy while flying the F1 in MP... I've been shot down many times in it though.

Yeah, it is a major limitation for BVR aircraft, though even with IFF gear for example the USAF in general had similar ROEs in VN, which was one of the reasons the US forces generally didn't do great, because they didn't really train for BFM much. Navy Crusaders basically were WVR machines and their training/usage reflected that so as a whole they did much better than other USAF/USN units as an example.

Currently given the poor range of the R530's (realistically WVR) its generally not a huge problem currently for the mirage. Once the Super 530 makes it in the game I think it will be far more of one. And online servers will have to adapt IMO. On ECW (I assume this is the MP server you mean), the meta that evolved was that since blue F5's had 9P5's for armament which are basically BVR missiles when fired head on, they learned to work closely with human GCI's to find and localize targets. The mig21 with IFF on red those guys had little need for that so it never developed prior to the F1 being on the sever, and currently its "evolving".  So I'd assume that whichever team ends up with the F1 will end up using human GCI's more for that reason. Which is totally realistic. One thing that DCS does badly overall is really modeling the level of SA that most fighter pilots realistically have for the non-DL planes (also why those planes are popular). For example if you looked at what hierarchical soviet era IADS/GCI nets looked like basically there is a radar on ever street corner covering everything, and each group of fighters has a lot of hand holding going on GCI wise. In DCS MP, on most servers you are lucky to have some random EWR's setup or a single awacs and tons of blind spots which is laughably unrealistic and seldom anyone doing GCI. A big part of the issue are clueless mission designers, but also the antiquated DCS radio setups. I had high hopes for something better from the IADS dev, but I guess thats been shelved for now so we are stuck with the ancient radio comms.