DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[PB0_corse66]

mmm let me check..

Run 1 : We fired at Angel 25, bandits were angel 27 / 29 and closing speed around Mach 2

Run 2 : we fired at angel 27, bandits were angel 26, closing speed around Mach 1.9

Run 3: we fired at angel 29, bandits were angel 26, closing speed around Mach 2.1 (but they were A missiles)

[The_Tau]

4 hours ago, PB0_corse66 said:

mmm let me check..

Run 1 : We fired at Angel 25, bandits were angel 27 / 29 and closing speed around Mach 2

Run 2 : we fired at angel 27, bandits were angel 26, closing speed around Mach 1.9

Run 3: we fired at angel 29, bandits were angel 26, closing speed around Mach 2.1 (but they were A missiles)

First of all, once again. 54 is not 120. Do not use it like 120. Firing below 30k alt unless ACM, is firing outside 54 parameters. 

 

Ace AI is unrealistically too good, and that is ED problem. It always sees 54 incoming at 10nm, and can notch it perfectly no matter the quality of RWR

54A is a complete trash vs fighters, as it was designed purely vs bombers (and it was used as such by USN doctrine, AIM7s were for fighters). 54A not only require TWS go active signal (if track is lost then missile is trashed), but it also have much lower notch, chaff resistance than 54C.

When notched, pull up maneuver by 54 I do consider as bug, require fixing. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about it right now 

 

Firing 54 parameters is at least 30k, but best 40-45k, higher -> better. 0.9 mach minimum, any extra speed is nice bonus but 45k is more important then 1.2 mach. 

AI is dumb, and if it is targeting you it will try to match your alt. So keep your alt after firing, it will make AI keep your alt at around 40k. 54 is absolutely deadly against targets over 40k.

Therefore prioritize high flying targets. Say loadout is 4/2/2. If I see 3 targets in trail, first 2 below 20k and last one above 35k, I would target last bandit, set ignore the tracks of first 2, to make it easier for awg9 to have nice solid track, support until pitbull on 3rd bandit and then skate to  build separation  and  reset. You could also fire on first 2 targets but PK would be much lower. You have to decide do you want 1 probable kill and 3 54s left or use 3 missiles to make them all go defensive but all of them survive and have 1 54 left. 

Use ECM. It will greatly decrease range of AI engaging you. Burn through range should be around 29nm so when you are closer then that DONT FORGET TO SWITCH ECM OFF. Otherwise you will turn enemy R27ERs into HOJ fire and forget stealth missiles. 

Per starting at mark 15 min

Use TWS/STT range rule

above 30nm to target use TWS, 30-20nm deadzone, do not fire, less then 20nm PDSTT. 15-10nm and less Pulse STT but PDSTT also good. 

Tacview-20230112-015824-DCS-F-14B BVR Su27.zip.acmi

In short in BVR fly it more like interceptor MiG31 and not like F16/F18

Edited March 15, 2023 by The_Tau

[PB0_corse66]

Thanks a ton for all the info I'll definitively try it

[cmbaviator]

i recently watched a 2023 video from STT_Checklist a think playing as a RIO on GS server and they were able to hit players with Phoenix at 50-60 Nm, how did they manage to do so ?

[Harlikwin]

50 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

i recently watched a 2023 video from STT_Checklist a think playing as a RIO on GS server and they were able to hit players with Phoenix at 50-60 Nm, how did they manage to do so ?

Presumably because they shot fast, high, and the other guy was an idiot and flew into it. 

[The_Tau]

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

i recently watched a 2023 video from STT_Checklist a think playing as a RIO on GS server and they were able to hit players with Phoenix at 50-60 Nm, how did they manage to do so ?

I use those tactics 

 

[Karon]

6 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

i recently watched a 2023 video from STT_Checklist a think playing as a RIO on GS server and they were able to hit players with Phoenix at 50-60 Nm, how did they manage to do so ?

If you scroll back, you find plenty of answers. Plus several other threads. Example.

[WarthogOsl]

Anyone noticing some weirdness with launching the Phoenix...perhaps it's just a multi-threaded thing?  Basically the missile immediately strafes to the side on release.  It looks very strange.  Last night I launched 3 in sequence, wing level, and 15-20 degrees nose up (as is my usual way).  All 3 missiles were launched from the tunnel (not pylon) and did the same thing.  This was on multiplayer, btw.

[Dannyvandelft]

i recently watched a 2023 video from STT_Checklist a think playing as a RIO on GS server and they were able to hit players with Phoenix at 50-60 Nm, how did they manage to do so ?

Fly fast, mach 0.9 or more, fly high, 35,000 feet or more, and have the radar in small target setting. Then after the launch it's all about how well they defend once the missile goes active.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[cmbaviator]

3 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Fly fast, mach 0.9 or more, fly high, 35,000 feet or more, and have the radar in small target setting. Then after the launch it's all about how well they defend once the missile goes active.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

I see. When flying solo, can you tell jester to put the setting to small ?

[Tweety777]

Or press the 2 key (under the F2 button) to jump into the back seat and change it yourself. Then press the 1 key right beside it to jump into the pilot seat again.

[cmbaviator]

43 minutes ago, Tweety777 said:

Or press the 2 key (under the F2 button) to jump into the back seat and change it yourself. Then press the 1 key right beside it to jump into the pilot seat again.

Well i don't know how to RIO yet

[Tweety777]

I understand your problem, I only fly the plane as well. You don't need to RIO that way, only flip the switch in the top row in the left corner. You could do this before taking off as well so you don't need to worry about Iceman as well. See the switch in the red circle below.

 

[cmbaviator]

9 minutes ago, Tweety777 said:

I understand your problem, I only fly the plane as well. You don't need to RIO that way, only flip the switch in the top row in the left corner. You could do this before taking off as well so you don't need to worry about Iceman as well. See the switch in the red circle below.

 

thanks

[Dannyvandelft]

I see. When flying solo, can you tell jester to put the setting to small ?

Yup. Open the Jester wheel, Beyond Visual Range, Radar Settings, Target Size

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Alcatraz SVK]

You can tell jester to set target to small you dont need to do anything as RIO

 

[TAIPAN_]

Anything in the back seat like that you can do as part of your startup:

-TCS to MAN so that Jester doesn't leave it stuck on old targets when locking new a new target with PAL

-Target Aspect to BEAM (seems to work better with cold targets than NOSE default does)

-Target Size LARGE (goes active at 13 seconds, even though DCS only warns them at 10 seconds)

-Set Countermeasure bundles, and counters then reset (if you changed the mix in the re-arm menu prior to arming)

 

[Gun Jam]

No one wants to discuss the unmentioned improvements to the phoenix from what looks like the last patch....  Or is it just my lucky day

?

 

[lunaticfringe]

There were no updates to Phoenix on HB's part last patch. 

[Gun Jam]

Thats what I suspected...Maybe its just my imagination then.... I notice some other things too like the rad alt during startup is a bit different.

I'll keep quite about it then.

Thanks

-Gun

[eatthis]

On 3/15/2023 at 1:02 PM, The_Tau said:

First of all, once again. 54 is not 120. Do not use it like 120. Firing below 30k alt unless ACM, is firing outside 54 parameters. 

 

Ace AI is unrealistically too good, and that is ED problem. It always sees 54 incoming at 10nm, and can notch it perfectly no matter the quality of RWR

54A is a complete trash vs fighters, as it was designed purely vs bombers (and it was used as such by USN doctrine, AIM7s were for fighters). 54A not only require TWS go active signal (if track is lost then missile is trashed), but it also have much lower notch, chaff resistance than 54C.

When notched, pull up maneuver by 54 I do consider as bug, require fixing. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about it right now 

 

Firing 54 parameters is at least 30k, but best 40-45k, higher -> better. 0.9 mach minimum, any extra speed is nice bonus but 45k is more important then 1.2 mach. 

AI is dumb, and if it is targeting you it will try to match your alt. So keep your alt after firing, it will make AI keep your alt at around 40k. 54 is absolutely deadly against targets over 40k.

Therefore prioritize high flying targets. Say loadout is 4/2/2. If I see 3 targets in trail, first 2 below 20k and last one above 35k, I would target last bandit, set ignore the tracks of first 2, to make it easier for awg9 to have nice solid track, support until pitbull on 3rd bandit and then skate to  build separation  and  reset. You could also fire on first 2 targets but PK would be much lower. You have to decide do you want 1 probable kill and 3 54s left or use 3 missiles to make them all go defensive but all of them survive and have 1 54 left. 

Use ECM. It will greatly decrease range of AI engaging you. Burn through range should be around 29nm so when you are closer then that DONT FORGET TO SWITCH ECM OFF. Otherwise you will turn enemy R27ERs into HOJ fire and forget stealth missiles. 

Per starting at mark 15 min

Use TWS/STT range rule

above 30nm to target use TWS, 30-20nm deadzone, do not fire, less then 20nm PDSTT. 15-10nm and less Pulse STT but PDSTT also good. 

Tacview-20230112-015824-DCS-F-14B BVR Su27.zip.acmi 227.03 kB · 17 downloads

In short in BVR fly it more like interceptor MiG31 and not like F16/F18

 

he says the cat had the aim 9x, is that true? if so then WOW!! 

[lunaticfringe]

1 hour ago, eatthis said:

he says the cat had the aim 9x, is that true? if so then WOW!! 

Even without talking software compatibility which may have come late in the service life, AIM-9X needs the MIL-STD-1553 upgrade that came along with the B/U and was default in the D as a bare minimum to have a shot at working.  So considering Puck's experience, there's your clue. 

[Kageseigi]

On 3/15/2023 at 9:02 AM, The_Tau said:

First of all, once again. 54 is not 120. Do not use it like 120. Firing below 30k alt unless ACM, is firing outside 54 parameters. 

 

Ace AI is unrealistically too good, and that is ED problem. It always sees 54 incoming at 10nm, and can notch it perfectly no matter the quality of RWR

54A is a complete trash vs fighters, as it was designed purely vs bombers (and it was used as such by USN doctrine, AIM7s were for fighters). 54A not only require TWS go active signal (if track is lost then missile is trashed), but it also have much lower notch, chaff resistance than 54C.

When notched, pull up maneuver by 54 I do consider as bug, require fixing. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about it right now 

 

Firing 54 parameters is at least 30k, but best 40-45k, higher -> better. 0.9 mach minimum, any extra speed is nice bonus but 45k is more important then 1.2 mach. 

AI is dumb, and if it is targeting you it will try to match your alt. So keep your alt after firing, it will make AI keep your alt at around 40k. 54 is absolutely deadly against targets over 40k.

Therefore prioritize high flying targets. Say loadout is 4/2/2. If I see 3 targets in trail, first 2 below 20k and last one above 35k, I would target last bandit, set ignore the tracks of first 2, to make it easier for awg9 to have nice solid track, support until pitbull on 3rd bandit and then skate to  build separation  and  reset. You could also fire on first 2 targets but PK would be much lower. You have to decide do you want 1 probable kill and 3 54s left or use 3 missiles to make them all go defensive but all of them survive and have 1 54 left. 

Use ECM. It will greatly decrease range of AI engaging you. Burn through range should be around 29nm so when you are closer then that DONT FORGET TO SWITCH ECM OFF. Otherwise you will turn enemy R27ERs into HOJ fire and forget stealth missiles. 

Per starting at mark 15 min

Use TWS/STT range rule

above 30nm to target use TWS, 30-20nm deadzone, do not fire, less then 20nm PDSTT. 15-10nm and less Pulse STT but PDSTT also good. 

Tacview-20230112-015824-DCS-F-14B BVR Su27.zip.acmi 227.03 kB · 17 downloads

In short in BVR fly it more like interceptor MiG31 and not like F16/F18

 

 

Thanks for the video!

I know Snort caught a lot of flak for his embellished stories and unorthodox methods, but Puck makes it sound like it was the norm for F-14A pilots. At about 37:20 in the video, he starts talking about all the "cheating" they would do.

There was a lot of talk of pulling circuit breakers and such, but he also mentions always keeping the wings at 20 degrees. I had heard of the circuit breaker trick that supposedly gives more thrust, but I hadn't heard of the one that disables the main flaps to get clean air across the tail. Or about corner speed being 425 at 8G.

So what is a wannabe ace Tomcat simulator pilot supposed to take away from all of this? I've read a lot on these forums about the proper way to fly, and to trust the systems in place (such as to always leave the wings in automatic mode). Are the "cheats" more of just anecdotal war stories that have very limited practical use? Are they more super-lethal "grandmaster" level techniques that you should never begin to explore until you've achieved perfect harmony with your plane? Or are they simply things you should pretend don't even exist... absolutely, period, not another word?

So confusing. I guess the best way to learn is to just do EVERYTHING and see what works? Are the any dedicated DCS F-14 Cheat Youtube channels?

Edited April 21, 2023 by Kageseigi

[Timo Niemelä]

Hi,
Long before discovering DCS videos and this forum, I tried figuring out A- and F-pole distances for Phoenix's launched in the famous six-on-six test by compiling information from various books and the web. In case someone else is interested in this test or even wants to replicate it in DCS, here's some stuff:

 

A book by Mike Spick has a nice illustration of the test, showing in which order the drones were engaged:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his book James Perry Stevenson offers some pictures that display the positions of the F-14 and the drones at various points during the test. However, after cross-referencing other sources, I concluded that the scale is most likely displayed in statute miles, not nautical miles, despite what it says. 

Archived report by Forecast International states: "six AIM-54As were launched within 37 seconds against six drones at ranges up to 80 kilometers (43.19 nautical miles)" This is spot on the distance between drone E (first target according to Spick) and the F-14 at "first launch" if scale is assumed to be in regular miles. (God I love the metric system...) 
The last picture states "last missile active", but doesn't specify which missile is considered "last". My assumption is that since drone D suffered a radar augmentation failure and was discounted from the test, this might refer to the point when Phoenix number 5 goes pitbull, with other missiles already in terminal stage (except number 6).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I estimated launch distance for each missile based on drone speeds and launch intervals (There's a video on youtube named F-0442 F-14 Progress Report #7 that has actual footage of the launches), adjusted the scale to what is hopefully correct and put together this... 

It may be totally inaccurate since even the sources contradict each other to at least some degree. The picture in Spick's book shows the drones getting hit at a much greater distance, but the illustration is cartoonish and most likely not meant to represent all distances accurately. Spick also states that the first Phoenix was launched from a distance of 31 Nmi, which doesn't even agree with the illustration on the previous page.

Some observations:

-The AIM-54 isn't exactly reaching warp speed at this altitude...

-I assume the AWG-9 was required to guide all six missiles simultaneously at some point, so no missile could be allowed to reach pitbull before the last one had began receiving mid-course guidance. Presumably for this reason the crew selected first three targets manually. 

-Can't help but to notice the F-14 approached the drone formation from a rather weird angle that seems even more puzzling after watching FlyandWire's awesome video on intercept geometry (Thanks @Karon for providing excellent and informative content!!). Any ideas why?

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Timo Niemelä

[cheezit]

4 hours ago, Timo Niemelä said:

-Can't help but to notice the F-14 approached the drone formation from a rather weird angle that seems even more puzzling after watching FlyandWire's awesome video on intercept geometry (Thanks @Karon for providing excellent and informative content!!). Any ideas why?

 

 

 

 

My guess: the combination of the following separate constraints - 

a) maintaining range safety, while the wind blows drones off course

b) keeping the intercept timeline long enough that the aircrew can get shots off at every target

c) letting the AWG-9 break everything out nicely

d) keeping targets within a good TWS-A scan volume and above the minimum Vc throughout the intercept

e) trying to keep any of the 54As from having a really unfavorable target aspect during the terminal phase

etc.

 

Like most multivariable constrained optimization problems, the solution is often at a boundary value for one or more variables