At last a trully worthy mod to wait for.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Tornado! 

Dear Lord, I hope the flight model and avionics, except classified ECM and secure comms, are modeled faithfully. They claim 1989 IDS variant, but it really is 1991-1995 from Desert Storm to 1999 Allied FOrce (Serbia) model. I am curious what the nitty gritty differences between German and British strike variants. Hope we get Kormoran anti-ship missile.  Used by Kriegsmarine Tornado squadrons. 

[Evoman]

I am glad that the Tornado is coming so that our European pilots can finally have one of their iconic aircraft. However I am more excited about the F-4 Phantom and the A-6 Intruder. But I do plan to eventually buy the Tornado later on when its fallen in price on a good sale to see what all the fuse is about.

[bies]

On 9/17/2022 at 7:31 AM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I am curious what the nitty gritty differences between German and British strike variants.

Our IDS will be proper for all scenarios from early-mid 1980s Cold War, 1991 Gulf War, when Italian IDS identical to German variant were depoyed attacking Iraqi targets, up to Allied Force.

Up to 1992 the differences between German IDS and British IDS named GR1 was minor.

• British had additional Laser Range Finder & Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) under the forward fuselage received by the end of 1986, which slightly increased drag and was used to guide Paveway II laser guided bombs, but the target has to be designated by higher flying subsonic Buccaner with AN/AVQ-23E Pave Spike pod and Tornado had to fly at least at 10,000ft so its use against symmetrical opponent over enemy territory wasn't considered practically possible, making both planes exposed easy targets for enemy air defense and interceptors.
• GR1 also had additional small fuel tank inside vertical stabiliser and a bit different pylons compared to German and Italian variant.
• German was using MW-1 bomb dispenser with 4 different loadouts when British used similar JP-233.
• German and Italian IDS had also installation to fire HARM missiles since 1982 with digital MIL STD 1553B, when British didn't have this ability.
• German IDS were using Cerberus II/III self protection pod (developed in strict secret in cooperation with Israel which caused a scandal in Germany later on) + Saab BOZ chaff/flare dispenser when British used Sky Shadow + BOZ with similar function.
• German Marineflieger IDS were additionally integrated with AS.34 Kormoran anti-ship missiles.

Only after the Gulf War ended both German/Italian IDS and British GR1 started to be significantly different. But if IIRC British will not allow to model any British aircraft even remotely recent due to their policy.

[Mr_sukebe]

Thanks for clarifying.

We’ve been told we’re getting the German IDS.  Has the developer stated whether that will include the capability to use the KS34?

[bies]

25 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Thanks for clarifying.

We’ve been told we’re getting the German IDS.  Has the developer stated whether that will include the capability to use the KS34?

Yes, Kormoran 1 is planned according to developer's Discord.

[syzygy]

Can't wait to rip the ground apart at 100ft

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Looking forward to NOE computer + radar, allowing 600 KIAS at 200 feet AGL in all weather. Similar to F-111 TFR. How similar I do not know yet. Did Germans plumb their Tornadoes for JP233 delivery? Then there ALARM missiles for SEAD work, which was primary mission of Italian Tornadoes. Tornado was nowhere near a dogfight airframe. ACM was not its thing, it seems.

[bies]

8 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Did Germans plumb their Tornadoes for JP233 delivery? Then there ALARM missiles for SEAD work, which was primary mission of Italian Tornadoes.

Instead of JP233 Germans use MW-1 dispenser which was arguably even more capable and more universal carrying many different types of submunitions for different purpose like anti-tank, anti-personel/non armored assets, parachute mines, anti-runway etc. and different combinations of those. German IDS were integrated with HARM since 1982, instead of ALARM.

[Bremspropeller]

On 9/18/2022 at 11:01 AM, bies said:

GR1 also had additional small fuel tank inside vertical stabiliser and a bit different pylons compared to German and Italian variant.

If ~900lbs is small. This tank and the 600gal external tanks ("Hindenburgers") seriously extended the possible range of the GR.1 over the IDS, even though the Hindenburders constrained the max available wing-sweep IIRC, du to clearance-issues with the stabs.

Another difference is the use of four-heater capable shoulder-pylons on the GR.1* as opposed to the two-heater capable shoulder-pylons on the IDS. On the IDS only the inboard heater-rails are available.

___

*The outboard heater rail could also carry the ALARM missile, making that two ALARMs per shoulder pylon possible. All ALARMed-up that's seven ALARMs total, even though that's more of an academic loadout.

[bies]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

If ~900lbs is small. This tank and the 600gal external tanks ("Hindenburgers") seriously extended the possible range of the GR.1 over the IDS, even though the Hindenburders constrained the max available wing-sweep IIRC, du to clearance-issues with the stabs.

Another difference is the use of four-heater capable shoulder-pylons on the GR.1* as opposed to the two-heater capable shoulder-pylons on the IDS. On the IDS only the inboard heater-rails are available.

___

*The outboard heater rail could also carry the ALARM missile, making that two ALARMs per shoulder pylon possible. All ALARMed-up that's seven ALARMs total, even though that's more of an academic loadout.

Good hints. When it comes to additional fin fuel tank, if it was big or small is obviously relative term.

Considering DCS maps size i think our Tornado will be able to perform strike mission deep inside enemy territory at low altitude and go all the way back without refueling, with just 2 drop tanks for longer missions and it will still have refueling probe.

British GR1 were operating from British island, then to attack Soviet targets in Eastern Europe and go back. I guess that's why they ended up with a bit more internal fuel compared to German and Italian ones operating from the continent.

[Bremspropeller]

2 minutes ago, bies said:

British GR1 were operating from British island, then to attack Soviet targets in Eastern Europe and go back. I guess that's why they ended up with a bit more internal fuel compared to German and Italian ones operating from the continent.

They actually also operated from RAFG Brüggen and RAFG Laarbruch in westernmost Germany.

AFAIK, the german Tornado was constrained to shorter ranges because Germany wasn't allowed to have stratgic bombers, which is the category the Tornado would technically fall into with the fin-tank and the big drop-tanks.

[bies]

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

AFAIK, the german Tornado was constrained to shorter ranges because Germany wasn't allowed to have stratgic bombers, which is the category the Tornado would technically fall into with the fin-tank and the big drop-tanks.

It sounds possible. Different treaties impacted many weapon systems parameters.

With typical payload and the most unvavourable Lo - Lo flight profile Tornado IDS had combat radius of 490-520km. It looks like more than enough for most DCS maps, covering with virtual ring practically whole map.

British GR1 would be great as well but IIRC Great Britain will not allow anything even remotely recent to be modeled in DCS.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 9/18/2022 at 2:01 AM, bies said:

Our IDS will be proper for all scenarios from early-mid 1980s Cold War, 1991 Gulf War, when Italian IDS identical to German variant were depoyed attacking Iraqi targets, up to Allied Force.

Up to 1992 the differences between German IDS and British IDS named GR1 was minor.

• British had additional Laser Range Finder & Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) under the forward fuselage received by the end of 1986, which slightly increased drag and was used to guide Paveway II laser guided bombs, but the target has to be designated by higher flying subsonic Buccaner with AN/AVQ-23E Pave Spike pod and Tornado had to fly at least at 10,000ft so its use against symmetrical opponent over enemy territory wasn't considered practically possible, making both planes exposed easy targets for enemy air defense and interceptors.
• GR1 also had additional small fuel tank inside vertical stabiliser and a bit different pylons compared to German and Italian variant.
• German was using MW-1 bomb dispenser with 4 different loadouts when British used similar JP-233.
• German and Italian IDS had also installation to fire HARM missiles since 1982 with digital MIL STD 1553B, when British didn't have this ability.
• German IDS were using Cerberus II/III self protection pod (developed in strict secret in cooperation with Israel which caused a scandal in Germany later on) + Saab BOZ chaff/flare dispenser when British used Sky Shadow + BOZ with similar function.
• German Marineflieger IDS were additionally integrated with AS.34 Kormoran anti-ship missiles.

Only after the Gulf War ended both German/Italian IDS and British GR1 started to be significantly different. But if IIRC British will not allow to model any British aircraft even remotely recent due to their policy.

British hold on to their reserves longer then many others. I think that their JFH Harriers are in 'deep' storage. Meaning they can be brought up to operational level from 3 to 6 months, depending on emergency.  Some systems they carry on over to other airframes, when possible. Very frugal, our British cousins. Same applies to Tornadoes. There are websites dedicated to coming and going of airframes at Davis-Monthan AFB in AZ. Not a lot of British Tornadoes are there. In forty years, same thing will happen to British Typhoons and F-35's. 

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Well an accurate German Tornado IDS from 1989-1991 is IDS (UK GR.1), and ECR (SEAD) variants of Luftwaffe. GR.4 only came after Desert Storm lessons learned and losses sustained. GR.4 working in 1999 during Allied Force, Iraq, and serving till 2019 we won't be getting. One little detail, I am fuzzy on, is whether Kriegsmarine and RAF Tornadoes task with anti-shipping, and armed with Cormorant ASM, had extra plumbing and avionics for anti-surface mission or if IDS/GR.1 had built capability for that munition.   Anyways this mod should fit very well with Kola Penninsula theater. Working with DCS: Viggens to sink ships.   

[rkk01]

Will be happy if we can use the German version as a GR1 - the classic Cold War low-level mission profile
 

Some RAF liveries “in the box” would be perfect… but I’m sure there will be a host of squadron markings online in no time

Of course, if the devs get bored / short of work, they can always add a TIALD pod

[rkk01]

Biggest question for AviaStorm will be what they do with / how they implement the rear cockpit…

 

(and when it’s ready for deployment)

[Boosterdog]

On 9/19/2022 at 8:45 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

British hold on to their reserves longer then many others. I think that their JFH Harriers are in 'deep' storage. Meaning they can be brought up to operational level from 3 to 6 months, depending on emergency.  Some systems they carry on over to other airframes, when possible. Very frugal, our British cousins. Same applies to Tornadoes. There are websites dedicated to coming and going of airframes at Davis-Monthan AFB in AZ. Not a lot of British Tornadoes are there. In forty years, same thing will happen to British Typhoons and F-35's. 

 

No.  The harrier fleet (72-77 aircraft dependent on what you read), with the exception of a couple of airframes used for instruction and museums went lock stock to the US for a paltry $180M (paltry given they were just upgraded and reletively young airframes) to help maintain the USMC aircraft. Their remains can be found in Arizona.  

Why would you hold onto an aircraft noone is trained to use anymore?

As for the tonkas - this FOI request explains the process but in short - we dont mothball aircraft - we get rid.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/654061/2017-08326.pdf

 

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Thats is unfortunate. But doesn't all of NATO send their retired airframes for storage at AMARC at Davis-Montham in Arizona. Becouse of dry climate. There are a lot of European airframes in that place. THere is also another facility at Palmdale Air-Space Port that is used for civil airliners, I beleive. Not far from AMARAC there is a US Army facility for storage of reserve armored vehicles. Thousands of M1, M2 Bradleys, M113, and Marine LAV-25 just sitting in desert waiting for remanufacture. Army wants to turn those into razor blades but Congress won't let em. As older M1 are rebuilt into new M1s at Lima, Ohio Tank Plant.

On 9/18/2022 at 2:01 AM, bies said:

Our IDS will be proper for all scenarios from early-mid 1980s Cold War, 1991 Gulf War, when Italian IDS identical to German variant were depoyed attacking Iraqi targets, up to Allied Force.

Up to 1992 the differences between German IDS and British IDS named GR1 was minor.

• British had additional Laser Range Finder & Marked Target Seeker (LRMTS) under the forward fuselage received by the end of 1986, which slightly increased drag and was used to guide Paveway II laser guided bombs, but the target has to be designated by higher flying subsonic Buccaner with AN/AVQ-23E Pave Spike pod and Tornado had to fly at least at 10,000ft so its use against symmetrical opponent over enemy territory wasn't considered practically possible, making both planes exposed easy targets for enemy air defense and interceptors.
• GR1 also had additional small fuel tank inside vertical stabiliser and a bit different pylons compared to German and Italian variant.
• German was using MW-1 bomb dispenser with 4 different loadouts when British used similar JP-233.
• German and Italian IDS had also installation to fire HARM missiles since 1982 with digital MIL STD 1553B, when British didn't have this ability.
• German IDS were using Cerberus II/III self protection pod (developed in strict secret in cooperation with Israel which caused a scandal in Germany later on) + Saab BOZ chaff/flare dispenser when British used Sky Shadow + BOZ with similar function.
• German Marineflieger IDS were additionally integrated with AS.34 Kormoran anti-ship missiles.

Only after the Gulf War ended both German/Italian IDS and British GR1 started to be significantly different. But if IIRC British will not allow to model any British aircraft even remotely recent due to their policy.

 Buccaner  was such a handsome pretty airframe. What happened to all those 1050's-1960's British aerospace firms. All folded or got merged I guess. Like British auto makers.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

I admit. I am now launching DCS, not to play, but to see what new module or theater is announced. Even thou we now have, or will have a plethora of European types I still hope that following are offered;

1. SEPCAT Jaguar

2. Hawker Hunter

3. Super Etendard

4. F8N Crusader (late model USN/USMC and French Navy)

5. Blackburn Buccaneer (Desert Storm/Desert Shield modernized).

6. A-7D USN/USANG, HAF outgoing variant.

7. A-4M Super Skyhawk II

8. SUper Lynx

9. AW101 Merlin

Chinese AI: JH-7, J-8, Q-5

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Not that I am wishing or asking. I am curious what people think of AMX A-11/A-1 Brazilian-Italian colab. Light, single seat, air-ground. Does have Vulcan and can carry 2 X AIM-9M, Brazilian Piranha all aspect late gen IR/CCD, and South African Darter. Perhaps, but not certain, Israeli Python. Not in news a lot, but plenty in inflight refueling mishaps on YT.

[Mike Force Team]

@DmitriKozlowsky I understand you want more planes and jets added.  I agree with your suggestions.  Rest assured, the folks at ED read the forum comments.  They might not comment on them, but they do read them.

To keep hope alive, these planes are definitely in the pipeline:  f-15, f-4 phantom, the c-130, and the mb-339.  The mb-339 might drop sometime in August.  The two highly anticipated releases are the f-15 and the f-4 phantom.  

ED tends to have long, long periods of silence with an occasional update.  On a certain day, ED announces on their website a new jet, chopper, or map is available.

Mike Force Team

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Tornado with South Atlantic map, emulating fictional conflicts, in Patagonia, Tierra-Del-Fuego and Drake Passage, would be such a sweet combo. Especially on fjords, channel islands, and highlands on Pacific side. Snaking the along between islands, islets, cliffs, at 100-200 ft, to strike at ground and naval targets. Whole area is a maze of terrain and water. Chile remains a solid Western ally, Argentina, sadly, has been slipping into clutches of SCO. Especially China. Russia also is taking advantage of Argentinian dissatisfaction with US, OAS, and EU. With oil and gas deposits and potential opening of Northern Antarctica to resources exploitation. Area is ripe for conflict.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

For those interested I recommend a techno-thriller novel "Choosers Of The Slain" by William Cobb. Describes a conflict described above in Drake Passage and around Tierra-Del-Fuego Patagonia, and Antarctica. The protagonists are US Navy Independence class LCS , modified with many weapons not present in real world Indy LCS, including a pair of navalized Commanche helicopters instead of real world HH-60 Seahawks. The opponents are modernized Argentine military including 2nd hand Tornadoes, and AIP SSKs.