Wing sweep

[markturner1960]

Hi, am new to the Tomcat ( love it...) and a bit puzzled by the wing sweep and emergency wing sweep behaviour in certain situations. 

What would stop the emergency wing sweep lever travelling fully aft? Sometimes, it will only go about 2/3rds back? Of course mouse operation is tricky as well.... 

I would also be interested in how you guys have it programmed or bound on your HOTAS's ....I have the normal FWD & Aft movements plus bomb mode and auto on a 4 way on my Winwing F18 Throttle. But the emergency binding options seem way more complex.....

 

Thanks

[Lt_Jaeger]

Hey Mark

 

the beaviour you discribe is actually correct.

As soon as the Wings were forward there would be seals on the real thing. In order to sort everything out while sweeping back, the emergency sweep lever will stop at 68 deg and the Hz tail auth lights will come on. You have to wait till the virtual seals are deflated and the lights go out, then you would be able to get the wings in oversweep (all the way back).

 

I don't see any benifit to bind the emergency wingsweep to the HOTAS. You touch the lever twice / thrith during a flight (1. Checks , 2. Wingsweep full forward during launch / takeoff and 3. store them after recovery / landing) other than that, just leave them in Auto. Rarely I touch Bomb or the Aft Fwd switches  (configuring for AAR, Carrier Break or, god forbit, bomb throwing)

 

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

I don't see any benifit to bind the emergency wingsweep to the HOTAS. You touch the lever twice / thrith during a flight (1. Checks , 2. Wingsweep full forward during launch / takeoff and 3. store them after recovery / landing) other than that, just leave them in Auto.

Same.

[Cab]

2 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

I don't see any benifit to bind the emergency wingsweep to the HOTAS. You touch the lever twice / thrith during a flight (1. Checks , 2. Wingsweep full forward during launch / takeoff and 3. store them after recovery / landing) other than that, just leave them in Auto. Rarely I touch Bomb or the Aft Fwd switches  (configuring for AAR, Carrier Break or, god forbit, bomb throwing)

There are a number of enthusiastic DCS dogfighters out there who like to manually control the wing sweep during a fight.

Recent online interviews with various F-14 pilots indicate this was an actual technique in real life.  

[AH_Solid_Snake]

7 minutes ago, Cab said:

There are a number of enthusiastic DCS dogfighters out there who like to manually control the wing sweep during a fight.

Recent online interviews with various F-14 pilots indicate this was an actual technique in real life.  

For the -A certainly, its of almost no value in the -B with the increased P/W ratio. 

This is really really advanced level stuff though - for 99% of pilots its just a lever to fiddle with that might wrench your wings off if you get excited and forget. Theoretically the WSP can only react to changes in IMN, so depending on what you know you're going to do (dogfighting is always thinking a move or few ahead) you can program the wings yourself. E.g if you decide you're going to unload and get more energy back by diving then you can program the wings aft manually to reduce your drag and accelerate faster, similarly if you are up high and you know the IAS is way down but IMN has still put the wings aft you could throw them forward ahead of the WSP happy that they wont break off and you'll get to good cornering speeds / tighter turn radius faster.

There were also pilots / squadrons that were big flap users for the same reasons and with the same caveats that if you get too excited and forget, you've ruined your own chances.

Some advice for new comers in the -A prior to getting into all these interesting "tricks" is really understand energy management, and intentionally choose when you're going to trade knots for angles. In the -A you cant just slap on the cans and get that energy back so you've got to spend it for position that will allow a shot, rather than heaving hard and hoping for the best.

[JupiterJoe]

I have enough trouble remembering to retract full flaps during dogfights.  The maintenance crew hate me.

[Cab]

The nice thing in DCS is you can just respawn if you screw it up. 

And by the way, your Skipper hates you too because you are reducing readiness.

[markturner1960]

Thats great, thanks all ! 

[Nealius]

On 9/23/2022 at 8:48 PM, Cab said:

There are a number of enthusiastic DCS dogfighters out there who like to manually control the wing sweep during a fight.

That's what the four-way wingsweep switch on the throttle is for. For anything other than ramp start checks, unstow for takeoff/launch, and stow for parking, any manual control of the wings is to be done with the throttle switch.

[Cab]

Yes, that's as designed. But apparently some of the pilots who flew it over the years learned to use the emergency wing sweep handle, allowing them to set the wings outside of the computed parameters.

Boys will be boys, I guess.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Cab

[lunaticfringe]

The manual sweep switch on the grip can only honor or exceed the sweep program; it can't unsweep below the schedule.  That requires the utilizing the emergency sweep handle.  

There is validity in using the sweep handle because the program was changed from max lift coefficient to max specific excess power in early blocks, as the airframe and wings were designed to withstand it; the original program has roughly 0.1-0.2 Mach variance versus the later.  The issue is that the onset rate is higher in the former, and maintaining a higher net available G and drag in those respective areas versus having the wings program aft. It also has effectiveness at altitude, as relative Mach goes up versus calibrated speeds but the energy on the wing isn't comparable to down low.  Up high you can use the handle forward and maintain a good bit more maneuvering capability than you normally would with the schedule. 

If you think the A is underpowered or can pull its wings off easily now, manually control the emergency sweep handle- because you're either you're going to see even more drag, more G, or perhaps youll find a balance with regards to how it was originally set up and be successful with it, as the original crews were. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[RustBelt]

On 9/23/2022 at 8:01 AM, AH_Solid_Snake said:

For the -A certainly, its of almost no value in the -B with the increased P/W ratio. 

This is really really advanced level stuff though - for 99% of pilots its just a lever to fiddle with that might wrench your wings off if you get excited and forget. Theoretically the WSP can only react to changes in IMN, so depending on what you know you're going to do (dogfighting is always thinking a move or few ahead) you can program the wings yourself. E.g if you decide you're going to unload and get more energy back by diving then you can program the wings aft manually to reduce your drag and accelerate faster, similarly if you are up high and you know the IAS is way down but IMN has still put the wings aft you could throw them forward ahead of the WSP happy that they wont break off and you'll get to good cornering speeds / tighter turn radius faster.

There were also pilots / squadrons that were big flap users for the same reasons and with the same caveats that if you get too excited and forget, you've ruined your own chances.

Some advice for new comers in the -A prior to getting into all these interesting "tricks" is really understand energy management, and intentionally choose when you're going to trade knots for angles. In the -A you cant just slap on the cans and get that energy back so you've got to spend it for position that will allow a shot, rather than heaving hard and hoping for the best.

And the thing about this is, it's all "sports" Nobody actually fighting something that would kill them pulled any of that crap. These were all pilots playing the flying equivalent of Fencing with each other, then bragging with exaggeration later because they basically found a loophole advantage, not a reliable combat technique. 

Most of the Tomcat community never touched a weapon release in anger in their whole career except for the end of the line bombcat drivers fighting tin pot air forces. (or were part of a tin pot air force in one case who couldn't afford to break things by playing with the planes)

[Nealius]

I question the validity and accounts of using the sweep handle. The pilots/RIOs themselves on the various Tomcat YT channels have specifically said doing so carried a high risk of bending the jet, and was a no-no. 

[AH_Solid_Snake]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

I question the validity and accounts of using the sweep handle. The pilots/RIOs themselves on the various Tomcat YT channels have specifically said doing so carried a high risk of bending the jet, and was a no-no. 

Thats selective though.

While I agree these techniques were all only ever used while doing ACM sorties with other friendlies during training and they likely have marginal at best improvements to performance at the risk of seriously bending the airplane which would probably make any sane pilot think twice of really doing it in combat.
 

The reality is that if Pilot/RIO accounts on YT is the bar then you can see a recent discussion with Puck Howe where he goes into detail on how he was taught precisely these tricks.

To be clear - I'm not suggesting Howe did any of this in combat sorties and by the time of his combat deployments he was flying D’s anyway - in just saying these techniques are as well “documented” in pilot accounts as many other accepted techniques. Pulling the TF30 bypass breaker anyone?

[Nealius]

19 hours ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

Thats selective though.

So is taking the word of a few pilots who claimed they did it or were taught to do it. Now add in the infamous fighter pilot mantra of "don't let the truth get in the way of a good story."

[Cab]

7 minutes ago, Nealius said:

So is taking the word of a few pilots who claimed they did it or were taught to do it. Now add in the infamous fighter pilot mantra of "don't let the truth get in the way of a good story."

I agree 100%. Skepticism is always a healthy approach regarding pilots’ stories. But I don’t see why they would lie about manually sweeping the wings, so long after the fact. Embellish the effectiveness of their own flying? Sure. But the manual wing sweep thing rings true with me.

And I do agree with Rustbelt above. I can see it being a “gamer” move but not something one would do going up against a Sicilian. You know, when death was on the line!

[RustBelt]

Clearly, I can not choose the Emergency Wing Sweep Handle in front of you!

[AH_Solid_Snake]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

So is taking the word of a few pilots who claimed they did it or were taught to do it. Now add in the infamous fighter pilot mantra of "don't let the truth get in the way of a good story."

Thats my entire point- all we have are some accounts saying its a no, and others saying it absolutely happened.

After that its all how you select and weight the evidence unless you’ve got more.