Any speculation about Pico 4

[Jyge]

I have not been following the forum for a while, I am happily running HP Reverb G2. Lately I decided to check the forum out again and found about OpenXR and stuff like that. After trying to get me up to date with all the new stuff VR, I came across some Pico 4 reviews in YouTube, came back here but could not find any topics or on-going discussions about it? 

So what's the take on Pico 4? From the specs I find it actually quite inviting. For example:

https://vr-compare.com/compare?h1=HdfjN_0UlPY&h2=PvfCDzaDK

The resolution is in par with Reverb. I was never interested in Quest 2 and I am sceptical, how well the wireless connection would work here, but there could be some benefit there. SteamVR gets mentioned and I am wondering whether the OpenXR will work as well...

It has potentially some further goodies which could be interesting, like foveated rendering. So in the end it might be interesting. My son has my old Reverb and he is cussing the cable as he does some classic VR gaming, so I mentioned it to him and he might talk to Santa. If we go down this path, I might borrow it and test it in DCS...

Edited October 10, 2022 by Jyge

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

The first thing that turns me off is there is no physical connection. It relies only on WiFi connection. Not to say, the Chinese SM giant is no better than Meta in terms of your personal data.

Since I have yet to find how much better in terms of graphics quality of Pico 4 in terms of DCS or PCVR, I cannot make any comment.

Well, if you do not want your G2 anymore, drop me a PM.

Edited October 9, 2022 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[speed-of-heat]

MRTV has some reviews, it’s good better than the quest 2, not quite as good as the G2.

 

3hr native battery life…

[Mr_sukebe]

For PCVR it can use either wifi(including wifi 6), or USBC (upto 3.2).  I’m not confident that we currently know how that will compare with Displayport.

I’ve got one on order.  Have already taken delivery of my VRoptician lenses and USBC 3.2 cable

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Okay, there is USB connection, I have missed something.

[Jyge]

6 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

For PCVR it can use either wifi(including wifi 6), or USBC (upto 3.2).  I’m not confident that we currently know how that will compare with Displayport.

I’ve got one on order.  Have already taken delivery of my VRoptician lenses and USBC 3.2 cable

Yes, well MRTV said something like Half-Life running smooth and looking absolutely amazing. I am also sceptic about the wireless connection, but I would appreciate the benefits, however, even minimal stuttering would be already a no-go for me.

[5ephir0th]

I would love to know if it runs with OpenXR.

Damm, not having a dedicated DisplayPort connection it’s a fail, the Neo 3 Link has it

[Mr_sukebe]

1 hour ago, 5ephir0th said:

I would love to know if it runs with OpenXR.

Damm, not having a dedicated DisplayPort connection it’s a fail, the Neo 3 Link has it

It’s a WMR headset, ie the same as the HP reverb, so yes it’ll run OpenXR.

 

You’re not wrong about the lack of DP. What we don’t know is what data bandwidth it might be able to stream and whether it can avoid the need for compression (unlikely).  I’m just hoping that the (probable) compression is not as bad as the quest 2.

MRTV suggested that they’d be running a direct comparison against the HP G2 in the near future, which I’ll definitely be interested in.

 

On a positive note, the feedback about the pancake lenses seems to suggest that they’re a good step up from the fresnel lenses, with less weight, reduced god days and a larger sweet spot.

[speed-of-heat]

Yes I’m very interested in the pancake lenses, they seem to becoming more affordable which can only be a good thing.

[5ephir0th]

49 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

It’s a WMR headset, ie the same as the HP reverb, so yes it’ll run OpenXR.

 

You’re not wrong about the lack of DP. What we don’t know is what data bandwidth it might be able to stream and whether it can avoid the need for compression (unlikely).  I’m just hoping that the (probable) compression is not as bad as the quest 2.

MRTV suggested that they’d be running a direct comparison against the HP G2 in the near future, which I’ll definitely be interested in.

 

On a positive note, the feedback about the pancake lenses seems to suggest that they’re a good step up from the fresnel lenses, with less weight, reduced god days and a larger sweet spot.

The problem is, even if you get loseless compression, you still need resources from a GPU dedicated to the compression part, theres a review on youtube that compres Quest 2 vs Pico Neo 3 Link via DP that you get, on a RTX 3000 series, a difference on performance from 10 to 20% more on Pico due to no compression is needed, and we all know how good it is that 10/20% more performance on DCS VR

[Jyge]

What's the take on that "foveated rendering"? - is there actually another headset on market that's already doing it?

Eyetracking could also enable some fancy stuff, but in the end that might a matter of implementation into each and every game individually, or not?

[Mr_sukebe]

Foveated rendering requires:

- eye tracking, which is already available on the HP G2 Omnicept and will be on the Pico 4 pro, the Meta Cambria Pro (or whatever it ends up being called) and the Sony VRheadset v2

- the software application to use (IIRC) forward rendering.  DCS doesn’t support that, but hopefully will when the big graphics update happens

12 hours ago, 5ephir0th said:

The problem is, even if you get loseless compression, you still need resources from a GPU dedicated to the compression part, theres a review on youtube that compres Quest 2 vs Pico Neo 3 Link via DP that you get, on a RTX 3000 series, a difference on performance from 10 to 20% more on Pico due to no compression is needed, and we all know how good it is that 10/20% more performance on DCS VR

You’re probably correct, but it is possible that the Pico 4 will have sufficient bandwidth to not need compression.  Right now, I don’t think that we know for sure

[Jyge]

Ok this review speaks its own language...

Unfortunately he is too distracted once he mentions the cable - probably it is needed for performance and the wireless is not up to the task...

 

Also he explicitly says that it is a step down from G2 in quality. So yes you probably deal with compression issues and what not and even with USB you can not match DP... so I guess nothing for me in the end...

[dburne]

4 hours ago, Jyge said:

What's the take on that "foveated rendering"? - is there actually another headset on market that's already doing it?

Eyetracking could also enable some fancy stuff, but in the end that might a matter of implementation into each and every game individually, or not?

 

Varjo Aero also has eye tracking and foveated rendering. However application also needs to support it - currently MSFS 2020 as it uses Open XR is supported through the Open XR Toolkit. I myself have not tried it yet, I have MSFS 2020 but it just does not get much of my time at all these days. Mostly DCS and IL-2 to a lesser extent.

Edited October 10, 2022 by dburne

[5ephir0th]

3 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Foveated rendering requires:

- eye tracking, which is already available on the HP G2 Omnicept and will be on the Pico 4 pro, the Meta Cambria Pro (or whatever it ends up being called) and the Sony VRheadset v2

- the software application to use (IIRC) forward rendering.  DCS doesn’t support that, but hopefully will when the big graphics update happens

You’re probably correct, but it is possible that the Pico 4 will have sufficient bandwidth to not need compression.  Right now, I don’t think that we know for sure

Snapdragon XR2 supports USB 3.1 Gen 2, which is 10gbps, DisplayPort 1.4 has more than 25gbps so no way Pico 4 has enough bandwith over USB for a loselees compression

[Mr_sukebe]

1 hour ago, 5ephir0th said:

Snapdragon XR2 supports USB 3.1 Gen 2, which is 10gbps, DisplayPort 1.4 has more than 25gbps so no way Pico 4 has enough bandwith over USB for a loselees compression

Good spot.

Just found the bandwidth requirements for the G2, and they’re above 20Gbps.

As you say, USB3.1 gen 2 (and also wifi 6), are limited to 10Gbps, so some compression looks inevitable.

On a positive note, comments I read suggested that the Quest 2 was running the .5Gbps bandwidth.

It’ll be interesting to see if the benefits of pancake lenses outweigh the implications of no DP port

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mr_sukebe

[Bearskin]

Not the best in the Pico 4 unless you go for low settings.  Maybe the Pico dongle will be able to do the full 9.6Gb/s through Wi-Fi which would make it better.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bearskin

[Johnny Dioxin]

I've seen posts that strongly disagree with his findings in that video (using Virtual desktop, though, not tethered) - I'm sure that, as with most current and past headsets, experiences will vary. I'll be getting mine from Amazon so that if I'm not happy, it's the easiest place to simply return for a full refund.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Johnny Dioxin

[mbucchia]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:39 PM, Mr_sukebe said:

It’s a WMR headset, ie the same as the HP reverb, so yes it’ll run OpenXR

That is not correct. The Pico is not a WMR headset and it will not work with OpenXR for WMR.

As a matter of fact, Pico does not provide a native OpenXR runtime, and you must use the SteamVR OpenXR runtime.

So people thinking about using OpenComposite with DCS will likely be disappointed.

On 10/10/2022 at 4:01 AM, Mr_sukebe said:

Foveated rendering requires:

- eye tracking, which is already available on the HP G2 Omnicept and will be on the Pico 4 pro, the Meta Cambria Pro (or whatever it ends up being called) and the Sony VRheadset v2

There is a HUGE catch with the Pico: they don't provide an SDK for developers to use their eye tracker on PCVR. They only provide eye tracking support for applications running on the headset (Android).

OpenXR Toolkit (which is AFAIK the only solution for eye tracking foveated rendering in games like Microsoft Flight Simulator and iRacing) will not support Pico 4 eye tracking, simply because it is not possible, and Pico are not enabling developers to use the eye tracker on PC.

[Mr_sukebe]

Mb>
you were absolutely correct.

despite the Neo website stating support of OpenXR, the one that I’m just about to return certainly did NOT, which is frankly a bit pap.

 

I did think that WMR headsets were obliged to support OpenXR.

 

regardless of OpenXR, I got it working via USB cable using the Pico supplied “steaming app”.  Nice and stable, good frame rate.  The FOV is better than my Rift S and the sweet spot much better.  However, the graphics were only marginally better than my Rift S.

Using the Virtual Deskop App (which only supports wireless) frame rate was worse, latency was fine, visuals much improved.  However I had just too many regular lag spikes to make it useful in DCS.  Could be my local wifi, which was all of 1m away. 
 

For both wired and wireless bandwidth used was low.  Virtual Desktop maxed out at 150Mbps, well within capabilities of wifi5.

 

I do think that it “could” be a great headset if:

- OpenXR support was added

- the visuals via the Pico Streaming Assistant were enhanced to be on par (or better) that the VD App via USB

 

Mine is going back as I simply don’t have the confidence that Neo will do it.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Mr_sukebe

[72Stu]

Like MRTV said, stick to the G2.

Edited October 23, 2022 by 72Stu

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Keep eyeing on used G2V2...

[Bearskin]

5 Days with my Pico 4 I have tested all my games apart from Assetto Corsa. I have a VDSL combo, with Virtual desktop set to 90 FPS, medium graphics using HEVC, SSW on, and Steam VR @ 100% I am getting 866 Mb/s which is running Elite dangerous at Epic VR settings @ 90 FPS in Virtual desktop, Il2 at Ultra settings @ 90 FPS in Virtual desktop, and DCS world with 1.0 PD High settings 2xMSAA and 8X AF @ 80 to 90 FPS in Virtual Desktop depending on the Map, (I cannot get the Apache to run well on any setting), all running smooth, no stutter, all clear and bright. ACC runs well but doesn't look the best with ghosting and it is too sharp, RF2, AMS2 and F122 are all 90 FPS no stutter and all clear and bright. 

I tried the Pico Streaming software both wireless and USB, picture is too dark, latency too high so it needs a bit of work, I tried RF2 55FPS, and ACC was too dark and a worse picture, so I won't be using the Streaming software for a while, hopefully Pico will work on it. 

I leave my USB cable in whilst I am playing so it gives the batteries a bit of a charge while I am playing.

These are just my experiences with the Pico 4 and the VR games I play, personally I am glad I bought the Pico as it runs the games just as good as my Rift but with 2160 x 2160 resolution and a huge, sweet spot. YMMV 

 

Edit

Just to confirm (as some people tend not to read posts before answering), I am using Virtual Desktop and Virtual Desktop only with the settings above. My USB cable is plugged in for battery charge only.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Bearskin

[mbucchia]

6 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I did think that WMR headsets were obliged to support OpenXR

But Pico is not WMR. It never was and never will be

WMR is a standard for hardware/drivers so that headsets can work within the WMR ecosystem (the "Mixed Reality Portal"). The most recent WMR device is the HP Reverb G2.

Pico does support OpenXR, but only through SteamVR. AFAIK Pico does not provide any PC SDK for developers, so it's not even possible to make a native Pico OpenXR runtime (like what PimaxXR is to Pimax).

That's quite unfortunate indeed, I hope Pico boards the train eventually.

[Mr_sukebe]

Quick update, someone has found a way for the Pico to communicate via Virtual Desktop using the USB cable.