Something to get off the chest...

[Tank50us]

So, now that 2.8 is here, and we have had our issues with a few bugs and performance hits... I think it's high time I say something...

There are some people who really need to stop whining.

Now, I know we all paid good money for a product many probably feel isn't up to snuff... I get it. And I'm not going to join that crowd. Why? because unlike many of those that post comments like "Before long you'll need an $8,000 computer to play DCS!" or "This patch broke everything! Roar!" (obvious paraphrasing here), I do actually have an idea of what's going on at ED, without even having to step foot in their and ask the devs.

For starters, and this is the artist side of me talking... game, software, and artistic development is not "File -> Make Pretty Thing" and wait for a few weeks for it to compile. I wish it was that easy. But it's not. There's a lot of moving parts in software development, and when a game reaches a certain point, there's only so much that can have resources dedicated to it. As such, I'll try to address as many issues as possible, and hopefully give some valuable insight.

A quick bit of background... I am an artist, mostly focusing on fantasy and science fiction. I'm also an amateur writer, and back in 2006-2008, I was in the Command and Conquer modding scene. Sure, it's not game development, but it does give me a bit more knowledge on the subject than the average gamer.

Broken Module Release

From the F-5 to the AH-64, I'm pretty sure every module here has had its fair share of bugs at the start. Features that were promised, but never delivered, and all sorts of issues. However, there is a reason for this: At some point, that module is going to start costing more money sitting in development than can be justified, and it has to be released. Ever wonder why your favorite AAA titles release with bugs or missing features? This is why. The dev team really wants to squeeze in that one new feature, or polish that other feature, and they keep doing it, laboring for weeks or months trying to get it done to their satisfaction. All the while, holding up the progress of something else or worse, pushing the release date back.

This is where the upper management typically steps in and goes "No guys, you don't understand. We have a deadline, we have  to get this product out the door, so you either finish this feature by (insert deadline) or it gets scrapped" And given how much those studios pour into their games, scrapping any part of it is not a bullet they want to bite, but they have to bite at some point. The same holds true for DCS. As much as EDs in-house module guys want to include something with a module, or as much they want to ship the EA with X Feature... sooner or later, it must ship, and if it ships without it, then so be it.

BUUUUUGS! BUUUUUUGS!
(The only good bug is a dead bug!)

As anyone who's ever dealt with software engineering will tell you... you can fix one bug, and several more will take their place. How often does this pop up in your social circles? "They broke (insert missile) again!" I hear it so freaking often I'm glad it's not a drinking game... I'd be legally dead by now if it were. I'd argue that the more appropriate term should be "They changed (insert missile) again", rather than broke it. Take the Phoenix for example. An often "broken" missile according to one of my squadron mates, and yet, I'm still achieving expected hit rates (I expect at least 1 in four to fail completely, 2 at the worst), Now, this might just be my own experience, but I wouldn't consider the missile "Broken". Real world missiles don't exactly have perfect stats either, which is why real pilots tend to ripple them off even today. I think most of these complaints come from those who just got used to the new missile meta, and are frowning at the fact that the missiles have been altered for reasons they just don't like. This is human nature sadly, we are very averse to changes in our environment... even our virtual one (think this is bad? brows some 40K social media... bring your volcanologist garb).

The other issue I see here, is that you guys aren't reporting the bugs you see properly. Seriously, browse the Facebook page some time. Just count the number of times people screech out in all caps (or use expletives like drunken sailors) when complaining about a bug they experienced.

This. Helps. No one.

If you have spotted a bug (and I'm not believing that I'm the one saying this) go to the appropriate section in the forums, and report the bug. Trust me. Screaming "MY F-20 BLEW UP WHEN I DROPPED THE TANK! WHY YOU RELEASE THIS BROKEN GARBAGE!" on Facebook or HOGGIT isn't going to get the bug fixed. Coming here and going:
"While I was flying level in my F-20, I noticed that the center-line tank was empty. I prepared it for drop according to the manual, and when I dropped the tank, the aircraft exploded. I was on the Stoneburner server, and I did the same thing multiple times and the same thing happened at least four times out of the ten that I tried it. I've attached the tacview files, as well as the track files from both my machine, and the server, as well as my PC build. I hope this all helps"

That, followed by a few people all calmly going "Yeah, it happened to me as well!" will put that bug higher on the priority list for fixes, and then a few weeks later, tada, a fix.

Now, obviously, this doesn't happen all the time. However, I'm sure we can all agree that it's more likely to happen when proper bug reports come in, vs the scream fests that I've seen on hoggit or Facebook.

Now, speaking of priorities:

Priority List

Like many game devs, ED has a limited amount of staff available, and given that they're smaller than most devs, I have a gut feeling that at least some of the staff there have multiple hats they have to wear. If I'm wrong, then I hope to be corrected, but if I'm right, this just means we have to be that much more patient with these guys. If person A has both 3D art and coding to deal with, remember that he can't do both at the same time. An 8hr day spent modeling a replacement Tu-160 model for example is not 8hrs spent digging for a bug in the code and removing it. And even then, if you're fixing one bug, there's a bunch of others that aren't being fixed simply because the resources can't be split that much. If the time budget allows for 10 bugs to be fixed, and 30 are on the docket... someone has to pick which 10 get fixed, and which 20 have to wait. And the ones they consider more pressing, are not the ones we might consider.

How can this be fixed? Well, ED has its people all over the world, so the method by which most dev teams handle it won't work. It's hard to stand over someone tapping your feet at someone when there's a literal ocean separating you two. But I do think that if these guys were having to show progress to us every so often (say, every Monday for the artists, every Thursday for the programmers, or something like that), that might ease some of the tension.

Vulcan

Now, we all know this is coming. Anyone who's following the Roadmap thread knows this. And it sucks that it's not here yet, and I'm sure many are concerned by this point if it's ever coming. I hold out a bit of faith that it is, and that we're going to see it, if not by the end of this year, than maybe sometime next year. Now, why is it taking so long? That's hard to say. Odds are that due to how old DCS's engine is, it may be possible that the conversion is something that has to be handled slowly. And if the original coders left the company (or worse...) the ones responsible for it now might be stuck reverse-eningeering the original code so they can work Vulcan into it. Either way, I doubt this is a particularly easy task. After all, you can't just flick a switch and release Vulcan. Especially with the 3rd parties being involved as much as they are. Imagine how well that conversation would go...

"Hey, next patch we'll be releasing Vulcan next patch, and it'll require you all to modify your modules to fit the new framework"

Yeah, I imagine that will go swimmingly.

So I imagine that Vulcans approach is akin to walking a tightrope. ED has to make sure that it'll work with all of the existing modules with little or no difficulty on day-one. And that is most certainly not going to be an easy feat. It's also entirely possible, stepping back to the bugs for a second, this might be why some of the bugs that exist haven't been squashed yet: Vulcan is needed to forever kill them.

In closing, I just hope you guys are all having a decent time in your virtual fighter planes. ED's come a long way, and they still have a ways to go. So let's show'em our support.

Remember... Fly Safe

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Lovely post, how well said. Thanks mate, I'm no software developer but I can see so many things going on behind the curtains I can't blame ED's team for "so many" problems, yet the game is more than playable even when people rage in fury about whatever, so I can only take pity on them trying to figure out whatever they're working on. I'm pretty sure Devs are the first ones to want DCS to be perfect in every aspect, they're humans though…

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Well written post!

There are no easy solutions. One could argue that more and better communication could alleviate people's concerns (and loud voicing of them), but then look at Heatblur and how they handle things: they are very active on the forum but their subforum isn't exactly drama-free either...

The only thing we can do is to try and see things a bit more through the other party's eyes, and to be patient (as hard as that is sometimes)...

[scoobie]

There's one thing to emphasise, IMHO one we tend to overlook.
When DCS was Black Shark, there could be bugs only in Black Shark and the core game.
Now they have something like 30-40 modules (counting ED/Belsimtek only), each can get broken in one way or another by an update to the core game, plus the very core game has been getting bigger and bigger for 15 years.
That's nuts
An ocean of code, graphics, sounds, manuals, and what-not.
And ED haven't grown bigger in terms of staff number by 30-40 times. Maybe 2-3 times, IDK exactly.

[Lurker]

I for one have stopped playing DCS world. I haven't bought a module since the Hind. I don't plan to, unless it's something I know I will enjoy for at least six months. It's just the way it is. It's not anyone's fault. It's just how DCS World works. If you enjoy playing modules online then DCS World works "most" of the time. If you enjoy making your own scenarios, DCS World works "most" of the time. If you enjoy playing single player campaigns, or premade missions then look elsewhere, you're out of luck. Chance is, they might work now, but in a few months good luck!

It's just the nature of the beast, and I've made my peace with it. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Lurker

[Boosterdog]

A point or two on bug reporting.

Firstly, most reports never even get an official rresponse despite the rules being followed and the information requested supplied. 

Secondly ED via its mods have a long track recond in posting "working as intended" when it either isnt or shouldnt then leaving threads to wither on the vine.

Thirdly sometime a fix is suggested, ithe thread is highlighted as "solved" but the fix doesnt work for all. Again leaving the thread to wither on the vine. 

So its not all one way, ED are not blameless but I do agree with most of the OPs points. 

[NineLine]

11 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

A point or two on bug reporting.

Firstly, most reports never even get an official rresponse despite the rules being followed and the information requested supplied. 

Secondly ED via its mods have a long track recond in posting "working as intended" when it either isnt or shouldnt then leaving threads to wither on the vine.

Thirdly sometime a fix is suggested, ithe thread is highlighted as "solved" but the fix doesnt work for all. Again leaving the thread to wither on the vine. 

So its not all one way, ED are not blameless but I do agree with most of the OPs points. 

I am confused on the comment that "most" reports do not get an official response. Now, let me start by saying that we are not perfect and always trying to improve. Let me also say we are a small dev team and and even smaller community support team. Do some of the reports on some of our older products take long to get responded to, sure. Do we try and get to them all in good time, of course. So I really challenge that most do no get responded to, in fact we like to pride ourselves in being one of the most responsive developers out there but we are responding on not just the forums but all over the internet as well.

We have a long track recorded of making "working as intended" or correct as-is, yes we do. So what? We have never ever turned down info that would prove us wrong or show us new information, never ever, unless its illegal for us to use freely. If that evidence is not supplied, and opinion is not evidence, then yes, I can see how you might see it as "withering on the vine" but if we believe its right and nothing is shown that it is not, what are we to do? You already want us making sure every bug thread is addressed, but if you dont like the way we address it we need to spend more time there? There has to be give and take here.

If a thread is made, and the OP or others solve it, and its marked as solved, but that fix doesnt work for you then it sounds like you have another issue and should report it properly in a new thread and in that report say what you tried in order for someone not to assume you just didnt see the fix that didnt work for you. Not sure how this is on us. I have see a problem have a fix for one person and a different fix for another. 

Thanks for the feedback though, we do appreciate that no matter if its positive or negative. 

 

[Boosterdog]

11 hours ago, NineLine said:

I am confused on the comment that "most" reports do not get an official response. Now, let me start by saying that we are not perfect and always trying to improve. Let me also say we are a small dev team and and even smaller community support team. Do some of the reports on some of our older products take long to get responded to, sure. Do we try and get to them all in good time, of course. So I really challenge that most do no get responded to, in fact we like to pride ourselves in being one of the most responsive developers out there but we are responding on not just the forums but all over the internet as well.

We have a long track recorded of making "working as intended" or correct as-is, yes we do. So what? We have never ever turned down info that would prove us wrong or show us new information, never ever, unless its illegal for us to use freely. If that evidence is not supplied, and opinion is not evidence, then yes, I can see how you might see it as "withering on the vine" but if we believe its right and nothing is shown that it is not, what are we to do? You already want us making sure every bug thread is addressed, but if you dont like the way we address it we need to spend more time there? There has to be give and take here.

If a thread is made, and the OP or others solve it, and its marked as solved, but that fix doesnt work for you then it sounds like you have another issue and should report it properly in a new thread and in that report say what you tried in order for someone not to assume you just didnt see the fix that didnt work for you. Not sure how this is on us. I have see a problem have a fix for one person and a different fix for another. 

Thanks for the feedback though, we do appreciate that no matter if its positive or negative. 

 

Thanks for the reply @NineLine.  My experience is somewhat different that what you state. Ive made threads on a number of things, provided evidence and more. For nothing. Not even a "working as intended".  I did once get a vague "its on my list" from Flappie but that was a year ago and nothing more although I havnet checked recently as I lost faith.. Perhaps this falls into your "we believe its right and nothing is shown that it is not, what are we to do?" category. What do you do? Say so. Say "thanks but, at this time, there is nothing we can do". Id accept that. What Im left feeling is "go away and stop bothing us". 

Recently myself and many others have repeatedly told ED that their solution for Alt-Enter only partially worked in 2.7 and no longer works at all in 2.8 yet the thread is still marked "solved". There is little point opening a new thread when the problem is the same for everyone. The problem being ED took away Alt-Enter staing issue resolved and in doing so removed a feature many players relied upon for various reasons without giving any resaon why so we might understand. WE've asked for a resonspe, were copied in ED. Nothing.  

The "so what" is that it took me a leap of faith to buy another module.  Something that should have been a no brainer. The other "so what" is that if you want feedback, if you want people to go to the effort of providing the information you ask for, leaving them dangling, isnt a great way of encouraging future participation. I appreciate you are a small team. I know noone gets it right all the time. I just wanted to expand one my reasons for saying what I did so you ay better understand. 

Again - I reiterate, I totally agree with the OP for the most part. 

[Art-J]

@NineLine Alt-Enter issue is a good example. Yes, there was a fix, which worked, in 2.7. No, it doesn't work anymore in 2.8, simple as that. If we start a new thread on the same subject, it will be against forum guidlines and you or BN will merge it with the old thread (mind you, I'm not against merging as it's useful and required to keep the forum clean). But If we post in the old thread, we're back to square one where "solved" is not solved really. What are we supposed to do?

[NineLine]

42 minutes ago, Art-J said:

@NineLine Alt-Enter issue is a good example. Yes, there was a fix, which worked, in 2.7. No, it doesn't work anymore in 2.8, simple as that. If we start a new thread on the same subject, it will be against forum guidlines and you or BN will merge it with the old thread (mind you, I'm not against merging as it's useful and required to keep the forum clean). But If we post in the old thread, we're back to square one where "solved" is not solved really. What are we supposed to do?

I see that BIGNEWY asked you guys to try something, if it didnt work then report back in that thread. If you do not get a response, then you can PM BIGNEWY, as I said above we are covering a large patch of forums, just a few of us, while a thread you made or you commented on is important to you, we are trying to cover all those threads and comments, yes some slip through the cracks. 

8 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

My experience is somewhat different that what you state. Ive made threads on a number of things, provided evidence and more. For nothing. Not even a "working as intended".  I did once get a vague "its on my list" from Flappie but that was a year ago and nothing more although I havnet checked recently as I lost faith.. Perhaps this falls into your "we believe its right and nothing is shown that it is not, what are we to do?" category. What do you do? Say so. Say "thanks but, at this time, there is nothing we can do". Id accept that. What Im left feeling is "go away and stop bothing us". 

Ok, this makes more sense, so you are saying "most" you mean "most of yours".

Not to pick on you, but the first one I looked at, that I just now commented on what missing a track, and the reason you didnt include a track is because you were using mods. So as I said, its like triage, if you do not give us a clean report, which means a report with no mods and with a track, we may pass over it or might slip through the cracks. 

I do see others that are tagged that you made, so not sure I see it as most. 

You can see my comments about ALT-Enter above, I get reminder DMs on discord and here about bug reports all the time, its ok to do so unless you get spammy. We are just human and there are more than 1 or 2 people making posts that are important to them as yours are to you.

Thanks.

[Boosterdog]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

I see that BIGNEWY asked you guys to try something, if it didnt work then report back in that thread. If you do not get a response, then you can PM BIGNEWY, as I said above we are covering a large patch of forums, just a few of us, while a thread you made or you commented on is important to you, we are trying to cover all those threads and comments, yes some slip through the cracks. 

Ok, this makes more sense, so you are saying "most" you mean "most of yours".

Not to pick on you, but the first one I looked at, that I just now commented on what missing a track, and the reason you didnt include a track is because you were using mods. So as I said, its like triage, if you do not give us a clean report, which means a report with no mods and with a track, we may pass over it or might slip through the cracks. 

I do see others that are tagged that you made, so not sure I see it as most. 

You can see my comments about ALT-Enter above, I get reminder DMs on discord and here about bug reports all the time, its ok to do so unless you get spammy. We are just human and there are more than 1 or 2 people making posts that are important to them as yours are to you.

Thanks.

You picked one report - its a fair point you make- however Ive run a clean install for long time- most of my reports were with a clean install, most include all the files asked for and more.  Some are tagged, others ignored. And no I dont mean most of mine. If I did I would say "most of mine"  although again its probably a fair point that I am most interestedin what bugs me. Arent we all?

Thanks for your time. 

[Sr.]

*Vulkan