2 cents

[heloguy]

Just wanted to give kudos to the designers of this sim. I've been disappointed with helo sims in the past, to include MSFS for its dynamics; FSX for the same reasons; Enemy Engaged for the same reasons; and X-plane for just not having a helo I wanted to fly often.

 

This, though, is about as good as it's gotten so far, and I hope it continues to improve. This is the first helo sim aside from X-plane that I feel represents helicopter flight physics really well on a PC. I fly Blackhawks, and I'd have to say that the trim function in this sim is the closest thing on a PC to the real thing I have ever encountered.

 

I've never flown a contra-rotating rotor head, nor any helo without a tail, but this definitely feels like what I would imagine it to be based on my experience with conventional helos.

 

Just for kicks, I decided to attempt an auto to the runway on the first training mission(english version, don't know if they're different). Took it up to about 400m, 280k's, and cut the fuel flow on final. I used Blachawk numbers, since I don't have a manual for the Ka-50, and managed to get it on the ground in one piece. Wonderful!

 

The fact that this thing flies pretty realistically actually makes me want to tackle the task of learning the systems. Thanks again, and let me take the time to go ahead and put in a plug for an H-60, even though I know it's not the most glamourous helicopter :thumbup:. A DAP would be awesome!

[Wags]

Glad you're enjoying it heloguy and hopefully someday there will be a Blackhawk in the DCS future.

 

After reading all the trim complaints, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on our trim system :)

[haigotron]

Just wanted to give kudos to the designers of this sim. I've been disappointed with helo sims in the past, to include MSFS for its dynamics; FSX for the same reasons; Enemy Engaged for the same reasons; and X-plane for just not having a helo I wanted to fly often.

 

This, though, is about as good as it's gotten so far, and I hope it continues to improve. This is the first helo sim aside from X-plane that I feel represents helicopter flight physics really well on a PC. I fly Blackhawks, and I'd have to say that the trim function in this sim is the closest thing on a PC to the real thing I have ever encountered.

 

I've never flown a contra-rotating rotor head, nor any helo without a tail, but this definitely feels like what I would imagine it to be based on my experience with conventional helos.

 

Just for kicks, I decided to attempt an auto to the runway on the first training mission(english version, don't know if they're different). Took it up to about 400m, 280k's, and cut the fuel flow on final. I used Blachawk numbers, since I don't have a manual for the Ka-50, and managed to get it on the ground in one piece. Wonderful!

 

The fact that this thing flies pretty realistically actually makes me want to tackle the task of learning the systems. Thanks again, and let me take the time to go ahead and put in a plug for an H-60, even though I know it's not the most glamourous helicopter :thumbup:. A DAP would be awesome!

 

Cool! it's when actual helo pilots say stuff like this, that I appreciate this sim even more! :D thanks wags and co.

[geogob]

Just for kicks, I decided to attempt an auto to the runway on the first training mission(english version, don't know if they're different). Took it up to about 400m, 280k's, and cut the fuel flow on final. I used Blachawk numbers, since I don't have a manual for the Ka-50, and managed to get it on the ground in one piece. Wonderful!

 

I hate you. I've been trying to do that for days without success :P

 

ps. no I don't really hate you ;)

Nice to see what a Real Life™ pilot thinks of this sim.

[AlphaOneSix]

A DAP would be awesome!

 

Indeed! One of my coworkers used to fly DAPs, and he has some great videos.

 

Also, who says the Black Hawk isn't glamorous? Depending on the situation, it may just the the most beautiful sight in the world. ;)

[Reticuli]

Never found any choppers you wanted to fly in X-Plane? Comanches, Apaches, Chinooks, Blackhawks, Werewolf, Eurocopters, 109s, 430s, and on and on. I have like a dozen modded ones, too.

 

The trim function is barely any different than EECH's. Are you camparing flight director mode & trim to the real Blackhawks? Or does the UH-60 also have autopilot wings-leveling on by default?

 

I'm wondering if maybe ED could get ahold of the public GenHel Ames Research Lab Blackhawk flight model. Penn State adapted that pretty easily to Flight Gear, and they didn't even have to rewrite it in C.

[sobek]

The trim function is barely any different than EECH's.

 

You are kidding, right?

[ruprecht]

A fair bit of real world helo experience here too (Blackhawk, Kiowa, Huey, Ecureuil) and agree that the flight model feels good and the trim is fine. Best flight model since Vietnam Medevac :)

[Reticuli]

You are kidding, right?

 

No, are you? Have you ever used EECH? It uses wings leveling autopilot mode and the way you trim the aircraft is almost identical to Blackshark's normal flight mode. And in both you can trim a loop or a continuous roll. I get the strong impression that most of the people bashing other helo sims have not actually used them, especially when people start saying Blackshark's wings leveling and trim are revolutionary. Hell, it's almost exactly the same. The only difference is the ground trim state and the heading hold always being on until you switch on flight director, which switches to a pure rate-dampening FCS. How many of you actually even have Enemy Engaged on your computer? I'm not bashing Blackshark. It's a great sim, but geez, dudes. The first time I booted up Blackshark I was swearing going "Don't tell me Kamov's standard flight mode has %$#@! wings-leveling and heading hold on all the time; damn it." Because I don't like that, but then I was introduced to flight director mode :-)

[Aser]

"Don't tell me Kamov's standard flight mode has %$#@! wings-leveling

 

I don't know what are you flying, but to call "wings-leveling" to the pitch and roll Attitude hold mode is just WRONG.

 

Regards

Aser

[AlphaOneSix]

Or does the UH-60 also have autopilot wings-leveling on by default?

 

I see you using this term all the time, but I am unsure exactly what you are describing when you use it. I'm not trying to cause trouble, I just want to know that we are all on the same sheet of music.

[Kaufi]

Glad you're enjoying it heloguy and hopefully someday there will be a Blackhawk in the DCS future.

 

After reading all the trim complaints, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on our trim system :)

 

Mr. Wags,

they have created a wonderful simulation with BS. :thumbup:

There are small problems, nevertheless, always in so complicated programs.:smartass:

Many thanks request you also think of your loyal friends from Flaming Cliffs. (Patch1.13) And they have even more joy.:helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie:

 

Reno

Germany

Edited January 13, 2009 by Kaufi

[Rhino4]

Oh, NO! The 1.13 crowd found where we were hiding! RUN AWAAAAAAAAAY!

[MBot]

No, are you? Have you ever used EECH? It uses wings leveling autopilot mode and the way you trim the aircraft is almost identical to Blackshark's normal flight mode. And in both you can trim a loop or a continuous roll. I get the strong impression that most of the people bashing other helo sims have not actually used them, especially when people start saying Blackshark's wings leveling and trim are revolutionary. Hell, it's almost exactly the same. The only difference is the ground trim state and the heading hold always being on until you switch on flight director, which switches to a pure rate-dampening FCS. How many of you actually even have Enemy Engaged on your computer? I'm not bashing Blackshark. It's a great sim, but geez, dudes. The first time I booted up Blackshark I was swearing going "Don't tell me Kamov's standard flight mode has %$#@! wings-leveling and heading hold on all the time; damn it." Because I don't like that, but then I was introduced to flight director mode :-)

 

 

I have the impression you are mixing up the trim system and the autopilot. Even though they use the same button for control, these are two seperate system doing different things.

Edited January 13, 2009 by MBot

[sobek]

No, are you? Have you ever used EECH? It uses wings leveling autopilot mode and the way you trim the aircraft is almost identical to Blackshark's normal flight mode.

 

Honestly and sencerely WTF dude? I played EECH for about 6 years, so calm down. I'm not bashing EECH here, IMHO it is rather you bashing BS by saying that the trim system is identical to that of EECH.

[d0ppler]

A fair bit of real world helo experience here too (Blackhawk, Kiowa, Huey, Ecureuil) and agree that the flight model feels good and the trim is fine. Best flight model since Vietnam Medevac :)

+1. Vietnam MedEvac was awesome in terms of flight modeling comparing to most other helo sims I've played, apart from DCS:BS off course :)

[heloguy]

Never found any choppers you wanted to fly in X-Plane? Comanches, Apaches, Chinooks, Blackhawks, Werewolf, Eurocopters, 109s, 430s, and on and on. I have like a dozen modded ones, too.

 

Actually, what I would really like is a Blackhawk with a working Command Instrument System. There are some hawks out there, but I have yet to find one where the instrument panel works exactly the same as the real thing. It'd be great to be able to perform instrument approaches in X-Plane with a replica of a real hawk's instrument system.

 

Otherwise, call me shallow, but I don't find much interest in flying around in a sim without being able to blow something up. :smilewink:

 

The trim function is barely any different than EECH's. Are you camparing flight director mode & trim to the real Blackhawks? Or does the UH-60 also have autopilot wings-leveling on by default?

 

I don't know what you mean by flight director mode, but what I was actually referring to was the 'trimmer' button that was incorporated on Black Shark. Being able to hold this button down, position the helicopter's attitude, and then be able to basically let go and fly almost hands off except for small inputs is pretty much what a real helicopter's trim is like. The only difference is, in a real helicopter, the stick stays put, where as here, you have to let the joystick go back to center so you don't double your control input.

 

Indeed! One of my coworkers used to fly DAPs, and he has some great videos.

 

Also, who says the Black Hawk isn't glamorous? Depending on the situation, it may just the the most beautiful sight in the world. ;)

 

Definitely agree there. I think the hawk is beautiful.

[Reticuli]

Not having stuff to blow up is definitely a difference in X-Plane, but you're not actually blowing up things in your real Blackhawk, are you?

 

The Blackhawks from v7 work fine in v8 and v9. The panels look pretty close to pics of the real birds, and most of what you need can be put on them in Planemaker if they're not to your liking. Very easy to do. About the most complicated thing with Planemaker is arranging the layers so certain things like the ADI don't disappear behind the panel. The hawks package does not currently have a 3d pit like the Chinook, Comanche, Apache, and most of the others. We need a 3d modeler who knows what it should look like to give it a go...hint, hint.

 

On EECH v. Blackshark trim: assuming you're not in flight director mode in BS, both sims trim pretty much exactly the same way. Flight director in the shark, of course, is not wings-leveling but just the SAS channels dampening rates.

 

Can you trim a continuous roll or loop in the Blackhawk with its limiting SAS? Or does it prevent you from doing that and the most you get is holding a bank or pitch angle?

 

Actually, what I would really like is a Blackhawk with a working Command Instrument System. There are some hawks out there, but I have yet to find one where the instrument panel works exactly the same as the real thing. It'd be great to be able to perform instrument approaches in X-Plane with a replica of a real hawk's instrument system.

 

Otherwise, call me shallow, but I don't find much interest in flying around in a sim without being able to blow something up. :smilewink:

 

 

 

I don't know what you mean by flight director mode, but what I was actually referring to was the 'trimmer' button that was incorporated on Black Shark. Being able to hold this button down, position the helicopter's attitude, and then be able to basically let go and fly almost hands off except for small inputs is pretty much what a real helicopter's trim is like. The only difference is, in a real helicopter, the stick stays put, where as here, you have to let the joystick go back to center so you don't double your control input.

[ruprecht]

Not having stuff to blow up is definitely a difference in X-Plane, but you're not actually blowing up things in your real Blackhawk, are you?

 

I don't blow things up in my day job, but it doesn't stop me wanting to do it when I get home to my sim...

[Reticuli]

Honestly and sencerely WTF dude? I played EECH for about 6 years, so calm down. I'm not bashing EECH here, IMHO it is rather you bashing BS by saying that the trim system is identical to that of EECH.

 

They are almost exactly the same trim system. EECH certainly doesn't fly like Gunship! or Longbow Anthology...actually you can choose an ACAH system for the former in the flight model options by turning the leveling # to zero and LBA is only ACAH, but that's besides the point. In Enemy Engaged, you pitch forward, you tap the trim button, it holds. You bank, you tap the trim button, and it holds. I'm not bashing either sim, but the only difference between the trim system seems to be the shark's pitch up/right ground trim state, the heading hold, and flight director. Otherwise, it works the same way on my computer.

[Reticuli]

I see you using this term all the time, but I am unsure exactly what you are describing when you use it. I'm not trying to cause trouble, I just want to know that we are all on the same sheet of music.

 

Wings leveling (or attitude hold) in an autopilot is where you set the pitch/wings orientation, you hit your button, and the aircraft's autopilot stays there.

 

In the shark, when not in flight director (or Route following) you have the trim system and the autopilot working together doing essentially wings-leveling/attitude-hold...which isn't necessarily going to level you with the horizon, by the way. When you hit the trim in the standard flight mode of the shark, you get the trim being reset to a new point and the autopilot hold channels resetting to a new WL/AH orientation and heading hold point.

 

If you go into flight director, in contrast, you are getting only rate-dampening on the hold channels...which is what I tend to use, with or without GlovePIE.

 

Just so I'm complete about all this, Attitude Command-Attitude Hold, or dynamic trim management, or trim update (different names, same thing), are fly-by-wire AFCS/SAS systems that are used by helos that have recentering sidestick joysticks instead of conventional pole cyclics. In that case, you "command" the AH orientation dynamically with the joystick.

[heloguy]

Not having stuff to blow up is definitely a difference in X-Plane, but you're not actually blowing up things in your real Blackhawk, are you?

 

The Blackhawks from v7 work fine in v8 and v9. The panels look pretty close to pics of the real birds, and most of what you need can be put on them in Planemaker if they're not to your liking. Very easy to do. About the most complicated thing with Planemaker is arranging the layers so certain things like the ADI don't disappear behind the panel. The hawks package does not currently have a 3d pit like the Chinook, Comanche, Apache, and most of the others. We need a 3d modeler who knows what it should look like to give it a go...hint, hint.

 

On EECH v. Blackshark trim: assuming you're not in flight director mode in BS, both sims trim pretty much exactly the same way. Flight director in the shark, of course, is not wings-leveling but just the SAS channels dampening rates.

 

Can you trim a continuous roll or loop in the Blackhawk with its limiting SAS? Or does it prevent you from doing that and the most you get is holding a bank or pitch angle?

 

 

I'm sure the panels look close, but from what I've heard (I haven't tried them mind you), the systems don't work like they're supposed to. You can't set altitude and airspeed hold, and then have it drop off when intercepting an ILS glideslope, all the while having a roll command and pitch command reading on the VSI.

 

Th altitude and airspeed hold are only visual indications, mind you. You follow the indications with your control inputs. The hawk I fly has very rudimentary 'autopilot.' It won't fly waypoints and an approach for you, only hold an attitude and airspeed.

[Aser]

Wings leveling (or attitude hold) in an autopilot is where you set the pitch/wings orientation, you hit your button, and the aircraft's autopilot stays there.

 

Just so I'm complete about all this, Attitude Command-Attitude Hold, or dynamic trim management, or trim update (different names, same thing), are fly-by-wire AFCS/SAS systems that are used by helos that have recentering sidestick joysticks instead of conventional pole cyclics. In that case, you "command" the AH orientation dynamically with the joystick.

 

If you permit, wings-level in western aircrafts is a specific attitude hold mode where you will get exactly the wings leveled with the horizon, like in the GA (go around) mode or just in the auto-level mode after a coupled ILS.

Something you can't get in SAS mode, you will then only have the flight director bars information in the display.

I'm don't want to be smarter than you but I'd would love to know where did you get that info, I know in aviation we have a lot of different names for the same (or almost) the same thing but we need to use correct terms.

Anyway I'm ready to eat my words if you give something new :)

 

Regards

Aser

[AlphaOneSix]

wings-level in western aircrafts is a specific attitude hold mode where you will get exactly the wings leveled with the horizon

 

This is how I understand wings leveling as well, which is why there has been some confusion.

[soup55]

I have had almost every sim to hit the market, going all the way back to when (Microsoft) Flight Simulator was started by a company called Sublogic. And that was running on my trusty old Amiga. Black Shark is hands down the finest flight sim I have ever (flown) owned! Period.