investigating Starter/Boost-Coil cover closes after releasing button

[Nereid]

If you open the cover for a start or booster coil the cover closes automatically when the button is released (for no apparent reason - I don't think it does this in the real aircraft). This is very annoying, because for a second try you have to reopen the cover. For people using virpil control panels the buttons stops working for no reason, after the button is released (we have four switches with covers that do not work anymore since this behaviour was introduced).

This happens if the button is pressed by a key/button shortcut or with the mouse.

Version: 2.8.0.33006

Edited November 19, 2022 by Nereid

[Terry Dactil]

Same thing with the other covered button ( the Fire Extinguishers  and IFF Detonators).

Probably someone thinks it is a helpful feature to save a click, but it is not realistic, and I'd like to see it back the way it was.

[Bozon]

The makers of the Mosquito have an obsession with covers and latches. They all require a separate action, so activating anything with a cover or a latch requires 2 key binds.

This is silly and pointless. I don’t have an accurate sim-pit, and neither do 99% of the module owners. The keys and buttons I bind to look nothing like the buttons with covers or levers with latches. These extra covers and latches operations are just nuisance, not “immersion” or “realism” in any way. When I click a button bound to the engine fire extinguisher or release of the drop tanks, I expect the operation to work - the raising of the cover and press of the button is one action. Same goes for the flaps and undercarriage levers and their latches.

For mouse operations on the clickable cockpit, lifting the cover and pressing the button as 2 clicks if fine as is.

[ARM505]

This is easily solved, but involves some extra control bind work by the developer (for example, the Aft-Center toggle, Forward-Center toggle, Aft, Center, or Forward individual keybinds for the F16's Dogfight Override three way switch, to enable it to be used by people with only a two way switch available, but still be fully realistic for those with a 3 way switch)

So, any button or control that's 'guarded' could have keybinds for all of the 'open guard and press button then close guard', 'open guard', 'press button', 'close guard', and/or 'toggle guard' actions (there have to admittedly be quite a few options to fully cover all combinations, but I'm sure a reasonable compromise can be done).....that would involve a little bit of extra coding from the devs, but it's doable isn't it? They have to allow decent gameplay, but also cater to cockpit builders - the control keybinds are critical for this, but at least the mechanism is clearly already available in DCS surely?

Edited November 20, 2022 by ARM505

[Nealius]

The booster/starter covers on the Spitfire do not behave this way. Strange they would suddenly add this "feature" on the Mossie.

[Nereid]

16 hours ago, Terry Dactil said:

Same thing with the other covered button ( the Fire Extinguishers  and IFF Detonators).

Probably someone thinks it is a helpful feature to save a click, but it is not realistic, and I'd like to see it back the way it was.

Then they should stop this. This is not helpful but a nuisance. And because the covers won't close automatically in the real plane I would call it a bug - until they add an option to disable this. And if they like it, they should make the buttons clickable even if the cover is DOWN (or open it automatically if the button is pressed).

To emphasize it: I would NOT have bought the module if this behaviour was in place as I tested it or I was just not aware of it. It is a mess at this point.

 

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

The booster/starter covers on the Spitfire do not behave this way. Strange they would suddenly add this "feature" on the Mossie.

Exactly. I in my opinion they should remove it ASAP or fix it by adding new control options.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Nereid

[Nereid]

3 hours ago, ARM505 said:

that would involve a little bit of extra coding from the devs, but it's doable isn't it? They have to allow decent gameplay, but also cater to cockpit builders - the control keybinds are critical for this, but at least the mechanism is clearly already available in DCS surely?

They have done extra coding to close the covers automatically (but not to open them automatically which makes no sense). So extra coding is no excuse.

 

5 hours ago, Bozon said:

Same goes for the flaps and undercarriage levers and their latches.

This is another valid point. I have bound the flap lever lock to a two state switch. So the button to unlock is ALWAYS pressed, i.e. the lock is held OPEN by the pilot. But the lock closes without input automatically so my switch is out of sync with the cockpit.

In my opinion: If there is a control to open a lock, it should stay open - at least as long the control is pressed. And if they want realism, by forcing to open the lock, they should not give up realism by automatically closing covers that would not close automatically in the real plane. You can't have a cake and eat it too.

Best option would be extra controls to allow people with less input options to operate switches levers by automatically open locks and covers but provide single controls to operate all separately too. And they should add controls for the states for all levers/swiches and not just up/down binds as it is done for the flaps currently.

They should think about a standard for all modules to do it this way.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Nereid

[Nereid]

This bug is still present in 2.8.34437.

[Nereid]

This very annoying bug (it stops my from using my Virpil controls as I intended to use them) is still present in 2.8.3.38090.

[Bozon]

I don’t think ED consider this as a bug, but an intended feature.

[grafspee]

I agree with it, this is enjoying to reopen covers to check them if they are depressed or not.  Same with gear or flaps latches, this is the most enjoying thing in Mosquito. Why i am not allowed to let those latches or cover to remain open or unlatched all the time ?? Are we slowly heading to pre-scriped cockpit interactions, i am sure i won't pay a single panny for this.

If ED wants to make more pre-scriped cockpit interaction, just go ahead but give us an option to choose. If i would like to close covers or latch landing gear handle or flaps handle i will do by myself, i don't need any script to do it for me in matter of fact i fu..ing hate it. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by grafspee

[Nereid]

On 4/4/2023 at 3:58 PM, Bozon said:

I don’t think ED consider this as a bug, but an intended feature.

Do they work in the real plane in the same way? No? Then it is a bug and not a feature.

And if they think it is a cool feature, why are they not doing it for other controls too? Why do I have to press starter and coil buttons together? Just press one, open the cover for the other and press it automatically too. Sounds silly? Because it is - like the "automatically closing" button cover is a silly idea too.

And in some posts ED tells us they listen to cockpit builders and make it easy for them to adjust controls. Well, scripted button operations out of nowhere and for no reason does quite the opposite...

Edited April 7, 2023 by Nereid

[Nereid]

On 4/4/2023 at 10:30 PM, grafspee said:

If i would like to close covers or latch landing gear handle or flaps handle i will do by myself, i don't need any script to do it for me in matter of fact i fu..ing hate it. 

Indeed. What comes next? Will they raise the landing gear automatically for us after takeoff?

[Nereid]

26 minutes ago, 4eyes said:

1940's British Over Engineering.  I love the historic realism!

What realism? Did they had R2D2s in their cockpits in 1940 that operate their button covers for them? Is this some kind of Star Wars or what?

Edited April 7, 2023 by Nereid

[grafspee]

1 hour ago, Nereid said:

Indeed. What comes next? Will they raise the landing gear automatically for us after takeoff?

I wouldn't be surprised if that would happen. I'm ok with ED turning DCS in to more casual genere but give us option to turn off this crap.

[grafspee]

4 minutes ago, 4eyes said:

Common people...it's 1940's technology. High tech for it's time.  Don't like it?   Fly a more modern aircraft.  Leave the Mosquito to "real airmen".  

I'm not sure what are you talking about ? Those button caps, landing gear and flaps latches were only manual operated, there was no automatic cap closing or latches being latched all this was done manual. But here in DCS those are rock solid scripted getting in the way of realism experience. I have enough of fighting those artificial  scrips in cockpit handles and push button operations.

[Skewgear]

2 hours ago, grafspee said:

I'm not sure what are you talking about ? Those button caps, landing gear and flaps latches were only manual operated, there was no automatic cap closing or latches being latched all this was done manual. But here in DCS those are rock solid scripted getting in the way of realism experience. I have enough of fighting those artificial  scrips in cockpit handles and push button operations.

The starter and boost button covers are spring loaded to stay closed. When you open them their weight helps pull them shut again. Same with the flap and gear lever locks.

If you can't grasp that by looking at them in the game and watching the animation, you shouldn't be complaining about lack of realism.

[grafspee]

10 minutes ago, Skewgear said:

The starter and boost button covers are spring loaded to stay closed. When you open them their weight helps pull them shut again. Same with the flap and gear lever locks.

If you can't grasp that by looking at them in the game and watching the animation, you shouldn't be complaining about lack of realism.

Ok you are saying that all of them are spring loaded, so can you explain how i am able to have them all unlatched at the same time then ??

And how is it possible that starter button remain depressed while cover is closed ?

If you call it realism. Then i have no more questions.

Edited April 7, 2023 by grafspee

[Bozon]

16 hours ago, 4eyes said:

Here's some realism:   A human hand with five fingers is not a mouse click.

Here’s even more realism - I am not operating the virtual cockpit with a virtual five finger hand.

In the real plane, lifting the cover and pressing the button under it is 1 (one) action. This is not just coil & boost, also fire extinguisher, drop tanks release, undercarriage latch and flaps latch.

They are all 1 action, not 2. Moving the flaps handle is one operation by the pilot, regardless of how he needs to grab the lever in order to flick the latch open with his finger at the same time.

[Nereid]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:57 PM, Skewgear said:

The starter and boost button covers are spring loaded to stay closed. When you open them their weight helps pull them shut again. Same with the flap and gear lever locks.

Then how do they stay open when the button is NOT pressed and the pilot is operating something else? Have your pilots more than two hands? 

As Bozon said: If you argue this way, it is one operation. And do something about the magical open covers if the button is never pressed.

On 4/7/2023 at 11:57 PM, Skewgear said:

If you can't grasp that by looking at them in the game and watching the animation, you shouldn't be complaining about lack of realism.

Problem is: I have bound a button to OPEN the covers. And as long this button is pressed they should stay OPEN, because the finger of the pilot is holding it OPEN. But your script is closing them despite being held open. If you can't grasp this, you shouldn't be talking about realism. (and do not even try to argue against it, by saying it was just held open momentarily; if you are correct and the covers are spring loaded, then they should close IMMEDIATELY and we could never start the bird). And even if it was momentarily: Because of my config after releasing the starter button the button for OPENING the cover is pressed automatically. But the cover still closes despite the pilot was holding it open again. So obviously it closes while the pilot is holding it open. Tell me: What springs did they use that could do something like this? We do not even have such springs today.

So cool, because of your "spring-loaded covers that closes with the fingers of the pilot under it" (ouch!) I will have to check if Joystick-Gremlin can repeat a button press time delayed. Well done.

And think about it: A pilot could hold the cover open AFTER he pressed the button under it. Maybe he just wants to press it again. If you want to simulate springs you have to use a button that has to be hold the whole time (this would be fine for me, but not for Bozon) - or you use a toggle as you do for opening the cover. But then there should be a toggle for releasing/closing it too. You can't have a cake and eat it too.

And tell us: How should cockpit builders build a starter button like this? If they hold their cover open and yours close automatically then they could not press the button again.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Nereid

[Nereid]

8 hours ago, Bozon said:

They are all 1 action, not 2. Moving the flaps handle is one operation by the pilot, regardless of how he needs to grab the lever in order to flick the latch open with his finger at the same time.

And they sould make a decision and stick to it. Currently to open the cover and to press the button 2 actions are needed. But releasing the button and closing the cover is 1 action - and there is currently no way to release the button but keep the finger under the cover so it won't close just to press the button directly again. It seems they did use some kind of "smart springs" that know whent to push the finger of the pilot out of the way, just after the button is released. 

But this kind of mess is common to quite a few modules - and those not from ED are often worse. We really need some kind of standard for inputs.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Nereid

[Nereid]

On 4/8/2023 at 12:19 AM, 4eyes said:

Here's some realism:   A human hand with five fingers is not a mouse click.

Here is some other realism: A human hand or finger hand can hold the covers open after releasing the button under it. But those springs are controlled by some R2D2 in the backseat and (suddenly) get way to stiff just after the button was released. So the pilot has to remove his finger after saying ouch!

May you please tell us where we can get this R2D2 today? I would like one of those for my car.

 

And ED: May you just add a voice that says "ouch!" Just for realism, please.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Nereid

[NineLine]

I have asked the team to review. 

[NineLine]

Ok, if an option was added that the cover did not close automatically would that be enough? I think it needs to be an option for those ok with this function currently?

[Xupicor]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:16 PM, NineLine said:

Ok, if an option was added that the cover did not close automatically would that be enough? I think it needs to be an option for those ok with this function currently?

Just allow for multiple bindings. A binding pressing the button with cover snapping back automatically on release (already there), a binding that ONLY presses the button without touching the cover (not there), a binding that lets me put the springloaded latch in open position when it's held and doesn't just close on itself, a binding that lets me open the springloaded latch and closes it itself (already there). Binding to get flaps lever in up position, and not just "move it up" from whatever position it has now. I have three position switches, let me use them properly!

Those little things can get really annoying and are taking away from otherwise great experience. They force us to dig in the belly of DCS just to get custom bindings for ourselves, which is not even always possible. These things are sadly still not there. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by Xupicor