Regarding S.530F and the Mirage F1M

[woodzwalk]

Hello I wanted to make a post regarding the Super 530F in Spanish service since there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding it. 

 

To begin let me state that no pictures/documents that currently exist show the S.530F being used on a Mirage F1M. However I believe that this missile could have realistically been used in a "what if" scenario. 

 

 

My first point is that the Spanish Air force purchased 12 Qatari Mirages in the 90's, with that deal came around 40-60 Matra Super 530s. Four of these aircraft would be included in the Mirage F1 upgrade Program. The rest of these aircraft were retired and used for spare parts. Despite this these missiles were not retired from service or sold and one would even end up in America in 2020 where Draken was sold 20 F1Ms. The cause for this missile being shipped to Draken is still unknown, but the fact that these weapons were so close to the Mirages leads me to believe that at the very least some of these aircraft can fire the missile. 

A missile also appeared in Italy in 2019 when the Mirage fleet was being sold off however this case is even more unclear than the American one.

 

The Mirage F1M upgrade program included an improved Cyrano IVM radar which is very similar to the one used by the Mirage F1CT which can fire the S.530F, the S.530 also uses a rail similar to the R.530’s.

 

In 2006 Spain deployed their Mirage F1Ms in support of NATO air policing in Lithuania. These aircraft were not seen with S.530Fs which may lead some to believe that these aircraft did not support the weapon. However this was peacetime air policing in a relatively low threat area, which means that the ROE required visual identification and therefore these BVR missiles would be basically useless compared to more loiter time with External fuel tanks.

 

 

 

So what if NATO and Spain got into a desert storm like conflict with Syria/Iran/Whatever Nation in the 2000s? While I'm certainly not a Military expert or Airforce commander I am going to take an educated guess on the combat use of the Mirage F1M circa 2001-2013. 

• Around half of the F1M fleet would probably be used as rear line interceptors tasked with scrambling and using their speed to engage any aircraft that snuck past the front line air defenses.
• These Interceptors would be armed with S.530Fs, and French Pilots could possibly be used to quickly train the Spanish ones with the weapons.
• The other half would most likely be used as "flying bomb racks" to provide more advanced aircraft/drones with more firepower.
• The un-upgraded CE and EE fleet would be kept in Spain for spare parts because of their lack of secure comms and IFF.

 

 

 

 

 

So in summary I believe there is a good chance that the Super 530 would be used on the Mirage F1M in a conflict involving Spain, in fact it may have been planned by the Spanish Air Force incase of emergency. However I cannot confirm this but hopefully Aerges can shed some light on this with their development of this missile and the future Mirage F1M. Regardless I have been greatly enjoying the Mirage F1 module so far and am excited for It's future development. 

 

I have more than likely gotten some of this information wrong so feel free to correct me or share your thoughts.  

Edited December 5, 2022 by woodzwalk
Typo

[gnomechild]

All Mirage F1s should be capable of using the Super 530F. I can't imagine any changes done to the radar for the F1M would remove that functionality. You can even see in our F1CE cockpit a little switch for the altitude difference mode which is only functional for Super 530F missiles. 

 

Switch #19 in this photo

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by gnomechild

[Harlikwin]

Yeah pretty sure Aerges plans to implement the S530F for all the variants they are doing. But thus far progress has been slow with fixing the missiles. And for the S530F they also need ED to model the actual missile behavior as I understand it. Which might be interesting given the snap up mode and how much (if at all) it differs from the normal mode. I.e. it may all be plane side stuff for snap in which case thats easier on ED.

 

[gnomechild]

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Yeah pretty sure Aerges plans to implement the S530F for all the variants they are doing. But thus far progress has been slow with fixing the missiles. And for the S530F they also need ED to model the actual missile behavior as I understand it. Which might be interesting given the snap up mode and how much (if at all) it differs from the normal mode. I.e. it may all be plane side stuff for snap in which case thats easier on ED.

 

Norm/Snap should all be plane side. AFAIK all it does is change the interceptor turn director logic 

[Harlikwin]

13 hours ago, gnomechild said:

Norm/Snap should all be plane side. AFAIK all it does is change the interceptor turn director logic 

Yeah, per the manual thats how I interpreted it too. 

[Thinder]

On 12/7/2022 at 3:22 AM, gnomechild said:

Norm/Snap should all be plane side. AFAIK all it does is change the interceptor turn director logic 

Exactly. Those results on computed cues to help the pilot bring the F1 within the firing envelop of the Super 530 for high/fast flying targets, something the 530 was totally incapable of.

When the F1 entered service, the Mig-25 had been out there for already 3 years and the threat levels were significantly higher, it would take only a few mn for a Foxbat to cross the East German border and be over France at the speed they were capable of, even the Israeli F-4 with AIM-7 couldn't intercept them, so the AAM needed much better snap up performances.

Mirage F1. Dassault Aviation

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Thinder

[grim_reaper68]

Hi 

I saw that since the latest update of DCS, the S530F has been textured. But it's still not avaible for the F1. Trying to add it in the lua file but don't work. 

[MysteriousHonza]

On 12/17/2022 at 5:52 PM, grim_reaper68 said:

Hi 

I saw that since the latest update of DCS, the S530F has been textured. But it's still not avaible for the F1. Trying to add it in the lua file but don't work. 

I cant find it in lua, i dont think its in the game yet, dunno which S530F you meant in DCS.  

[grim_reaper68]

It's in the mirage-F1 lua file

id_CLB4_400HD = "{CLB4_SAMP400HD}"
id_SUPER_530F = "{S530F}"--SUPER 530F
id_MICA_RF = "{6D778860-7BB8-4ACB-9E95-BA772C6BBC2C}"--MICA RF
 

And appears in the pylon 3 and 5 loadout.

[DSplayer]

It’s because the missile doesn’t have its own LUA file yet. That Super 530F reference basically calls a nonexistent item in the game. It actually replaces the Super 530D which was the placeholder for the S530F.

[Thinder]

 

[Thinder]

On 12/26/2022 at 9:24 AM, DSplayer said:

It’s because the missile doesn’t have its own LUA file yet. That Super 530F reference basically calls a nonexistent item in the game. It actually replaces the Super 530D which was the placeholder for the S530F.

The Super 530D never was fitted to the Mirage F1, it was designed to use the RDI (Radar Doppler à Impulsion)radar of the Mirage 2000C, D stands for Doppler and the F1 doesn't have this capability.

The 530F was designed for use with the Mirage F1.

So whatever they use for this F1, it has to have the same firing and flight envelop that the actual Super 530F used by RAZBAM, the D was not only improved in electronics but its performances as well were superior to that of the F.

As for the actual 530, its kill ratio in the game is completely unrealistic, due to maintenance and rather below average electronics, it would fail to hit its target most of the time, so it is just as well that Aerges plans to give this F1 a true BVR AAM because the only Air Force which tried to use it, the Israeli Air Force, scored only 1 kill with the 530.

I'd rather have a second pylon for the IR AAM than a 530 fitted....

Edited January 17, 2023 by Thinder

[Bananabrai]

1 hour ago, Thinder said:

I'd rather have a second pylon for the IR AAM than a 530 fitted....

Would be cool to have this option to recreate the Greek F1CG with 4x AIM-9.

[DSplayer]

13 hours ago, Thinder said:

The Super 530D never was fitted to the Mirage F1, it was designed to use the RDI (Radar Doppler à Impulsion)radar of the Mirage 2000C, D stands for Doppler and the F1 doesn't have this capability.

The 530F was designed for use with the Mirage F1.

So whatever they use for this F1, it has to have the same firing and flight envelop that the actual Super 530F used by RAZBAM, the D was not only improved in electronics but its performances as well were superior to that of the F.

As for the actual 530, its kill ratio in the game is completely unrealistic, due to maintenance and rather below average electronics, it would fail to hit its target most of the time, so it is just as well that Aerges plans to give this F1 a true BVR AAM because the only Air Force which tried to use it, the Israeli Air Force, scored only 1 kill with the 530.

I'd rather have a second pylon for the IR AAM than a 530 fitted....

 

Yes. I'm just talking about how they just used the S530D for the AI models of the F1 that carried the S530F as a placeholder until the S530F could be added.

[Thinder]

One thing that would help both developers and players is a common weapons pools, data shared between developers so we would have the same weapon shared between A-Cs.

RAZBAM have done a terrific job of the Mirage 2000, it did certainly do them some good to have Armee de l'Air work with them on the module...

[3000 Black Jets of Allah]

On 1/17/2023 at 5:44 PM, Thinder said:

The Super 530D never was fitted to the Mirage F1, it was designed to use the RDI (Radar Doppler à Impulsion)radar of the Mirage 2000C, D stands for Doppler and the F1 doesn't have this capability.

The 530F was designed for use with the Mirage F1.

So whatever they use for this F1, it has to have the same firing and flight envelop that the actual Super 530F used by RAZBAM, the D was not only improved in electronics but its performances as well were superior to that of the F.

As for the actual 530, its kill ratio in the game is completely unrealistic, due to maintenance and rather below average electronics, it would fail to hit its target most of the time, so it is just as well that Aerges plans to give this F1 a true BVR AAM because the only Air Force which tried to use it, the Israeli Air Force, scored only 1 kill with the 530.

I'd rather have a second pylon for the IR AAM than a 530 fitted....

 

RAZBAM and the M2000 don't use the Super 530F, they use the D. So the 530F for the F1 doesn't have to have the same firing and flight envelope as it is a completely different missile.

[Thinder]

2 hours ago, 3000 Black Jets of Allah said:

RAZBAM and the M2000 don't use the Super 530F, they use the D. So the 530F for the F1 doesn't have to have the same firing and flight envelope as it is a completely different missile.

 

OK according to RAZBAM manual, the 2000C used by the EC 2/5 Île-de-France is a RDI... I stand corrected,

L’Armée de l’Air Française s’équipe de DSC World – Mirage 2000

Mirage 2000 at Orange-Caritat Air Base using DCS: DCS: M-2000C by @RAZBAM  @eagledynamics  

RAZBAM details unprecedented access to the Armée de l’Air

I think I know my bit about those two variants...

LES MISSILES AIR-AIR DE LA DEUXIÈME GÉNÉRATION

Centre des hautes études de l'armement. Département d'histoire de l'armement. Comité pour l'histoire de l'aéronautique. Paris

COMAERO

https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb42381212q

Official website for archive on the subject of French weaponry, the document needed for this article are not all-public.

Quote

 

Les missiles à moyenne portée ou d’interception

La famille française Super 530 a été développée par Matra (cf. figures 40 et 41). Le missile R 530 nécessitait une refonte complète pour l’adapter à l’évolution des menaces décrites ci- dessus.

Le Super 530 F est un nouveau missile. Il n’a gardé, du R 530, que le diamètre (263 mm) et l’interchangeabilité avec le lance-missiles. Ce diamètre était adapté à la technologie du R 530 (datant de 1958). Un diamètre de 220 mm aurait été plus rationnel pour le Super 530, mais l’EMAA jugeait qu’un dérivé conservant le diamètre réduisait le coût du développement.

Le Super 530 F a été développé à partir de 1969 pour être adapté au Mirage F17. Ses principales caractéristiques et performances sont les suivantes :

- autodirecteur EM semi-actif à impulsions : nous avons indiqué plus haut (chapitre 8, EMD) les raisons qui ont entraîné le choix, pour le F1, d’un radar de bord sans illuminateur continu ; l’attaque de cibles à basse altitude n’était pas possible. En revanche, l’AD était moderne (antenne monopulse, radôme profilé et technologie électronique de 1970) et sa portée était doublée par rapport à celle du R 530 (gains des antennes du radar et de l’AD nettement augmentés) ;

- configuration classique, mais avec réduction de l’envergure de la voilure (0,64 m, au lieu de 1,1 m pour le R 530) pour faciliter le montage sous avion ;

- masse de 245 kg ;

- propulseur plus performant que pour le R 530 : masse de 115 kg (+ 49 kg) et utilisation d’une butalane comme propergol ;

- fusée de proximité Thomson, électromagnétique à corrélation (cf. chapitre 8, CFTH), et charge à fragmentation Brandt de 32 kg ;

- performances : tir dans le domaine du F1 avec Mach maximum de 4,5 pour le missile ; dénivelée possible de 9 000 m, permettant l’attaque de cibles à 21 000 m ; altitude minimale limitée par l’AD, variant de 1 000 m en attaque arrière à 3 000 m en attaque frontale ; distance de tir maximale de 25 km ; distance de tir minimale de 1 000 m.

Ce missile fut mis en service en 1979 ; il avait subi un étalement de son développement, pour des raisons budgétaires. Il faut noter que quelques interceptions d’essai eurent lieu au CEL, en 1975, avec une dénivelée de 8 000 m sur une cible supersonique américaine AQM 37 A volant à un Mach supérieur de 0,9 par rapport à l’avion de servitude tireur (Vautour).

En plus du F1, le Super 530 F a été adapté aux premiers Mirage 2000 équipés d’un radar à impulsions RDM. 1 200 missiles furent produits jusqu’en 1988 : 650 pour la France et 550 pour l’exportation avec le F1, vers l’Irak, le Koweït, la Jordanie et la Qatar. Le Super 530 F a été utilisé dans le conflit Irak-Iran.

Le Super 530 D est la version adaptée au Mirage 2000 équipé d’un radar de bord pulse doppler (nommé RDI, radar doppler à impulsion). Les principales différences de caractéristiques par rapport au F sont les suivantes :

- autodirecteur EMD semi-actif doppler (cf. chapitre 8, EMD), avec la technologie numérique de 1980 (microprocesseur pour la gestion) ; portée de l’AD nettement augmentée : 50 km ; très grande résistance aux contremesures modernes ;

- pilote calculateur partiellement numérisé ;

- véhicule plus performant : masse et longueur augmentées (+ 30 kg et + 265 mm), propulseur d’impulsion totale supérieure de 16 %, avec une enveloppe composite SEP ;

- performances : vitesse maximale de Mach 5 ; dénivelée possible accrue, permettant l’attaque de cibles à 24 000 m ; altitude minimale des cibles de 60 m ; distance de tir maximale de 50 km, avec une distance d’interception de 35 km.

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Thinder

[Badger1-1]

On 12/25/2022 at 11:40 AM, grim_reaper68 said:

It's in the mirage-F1 lua file

id_CLB4_400HD = "{CLB4_SAMP400HD}"
id_SUPER_530F = "{S530F}"--SUPER 530F
id_MICA_RF = "{6D778860-7BB8-4ACB-9E95-BA772C6BBC2C}"--MICA RF
 

And appears in the pylon 3 and 5 loadout.

It appears everyone is talking about the S530F but not the MICA?!

is that a possibility for the F1M?

[Bananabrai]

AFAIK MICA will not be an option on the F1M.
It was first adopted with the M2000-5 if I am not mistaking.

These missiles are relatively new, the MICA-RF is a FOX3, MICA-IR is pretty sophisticated FOX2.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Bananabrai

[fausete]

Noups, it is just leftover test code, sorry 

[jojo]

10 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

AFAIK MICA will not be an option on the F1M.
It was first adopted with the M2000-5 if I am not mistaking.

These missiles are relatively new, the MICA-RF is a FOX3, MICA-IR is pretty sophisticated FOX2.

 

Only Morocco heavily upgraded Mirage F1 can use the Mica. But it’s a totally different weapon system. They managed to squeeze Mirage 2000-5 weapon system into Mirage F1…or sort of. It’s a different radar derived from RDY, not Cyrano IV anymore.

And there is 0 chance to get data on that one…

Edited January 30, 2023 by jojo

[Badger1-1]

sad noices

[ferhas]

I would like to point out some errors stated in this comment.

Firstly of all NONE of the ex-Qatari aircraft wer upgraded to M model, the four mentioned  in your statement were ex-French Air Force Mirages F-1Cs adquired along with a two-seater. In SpAF received tail numers 88, 89, 90 and 91.

Secondly, no one S-530F was ever sold to Draken

Thirdly, the F1-CE and EE supported the weapon even before the upgrading program  The rail and the launcher (LM-38) are the same for both missiles and SpAF launchers wer modified at the turn of th '80s when it was thought that the weapon was going to be purchased, but by strange reasons it never happened

Fourth, the CYRANO IVM was introduced in SpAF Mirage fleet in the middle '80s, the M has nothing related to the M designation of the aircraft. SpAF and FAF were the only customers with the M model in the radar (do not confuse with MR radar of the Iraqui aircraft) The M designation was related to a big change of LRU's, the change of the scope, the introduction of new functions, and the introduction of new EPM's. So essentially the radar is similar to the CT, but the SpAF Mirages introduced an LRU's for Radar Ranging while the CT obtains ranging by means of the Laser Range Finder  the Thomson TMV-630. The CR has not that capability.

Fifth,  SpAF pilots do not need training on the missile since it was employed during the time ex-Qatari aircraft were in, so they have a good knoledge about its employment

And last but no least, Morroccan Air Force validated the MICA missile on its modernised Mirages. The upgrading was based on the SpAF upgrade

[ferhas]

A last comment. The whole fleet of SpAF Mirages received the BER-8752 HQ II capable radios and NRAI-7C IFF with Mode IV capabilty so you do not need to leave aircraft behind if you're going to deploy. Even the two seaters that were not upgraded received these two equipments

[ferhas]

The radar fitted on the Morrocoan Mirages is designated RDY-3 (formerly RDC 400) is bassically and RDY-2 with a smaller antenna reflector ( for obvious reasons of available space) what causes a lesser max range, but retains the multiple target tracking a the llo down/shot down capabilty