Pilot body: remove head

[BIGNEWY]

Hi Zealu, 

it is known, we do not force head boundaries in VR, I will ask the team however about this issue, maybe remove the head on the F1 view.

thank you

[BIGNEWY]

at the moment this is working as intended. 

We are discussing it internally however. 

thank you 

[zaelu]

Yes, I assumed the effect is on purpose and thought it has to be connected with visibility of the head in external view when the camera is distanced away from the "center of the neck" but the "trigger distance" its too small and its smalish dimension doesn't seem that useful for its purpose imho but it does create this inconvenient afterwards.

Thanks for looking into it Bignewy and for replies.

[Apache 64]

Am 4.10.2023 um 14:57 schrieb BIGNEWY:

Hi Zealu, 

it is known, we do not force head boundaries in VR, I will ask the team however about this issue, maybe remove the head on the F1 view.

thank you

...that would be so great if this would happen (and not only in VR). No one needs the own head in the F1 view, like in all other DCS modules. (or at least optional)

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Apache 64

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

 

[Apache 64]

Am 4.10.2023 um 14:57 schrieb BIGNEWY:

Hi Zealu, 

it is known, we do not force head boundaries in VR, I will ask the team however about this issue, maybe remove the head on the F1 view.

thank you

... and to clarify again: i don't refer especially to VR. It's way more important for TrackIR or other head trackers. We do not need boundaries in our 6DOF view, we need to "loose" our head in the F1 view like in all your other modules too.

Thank you 

[BIGNEWY]

At the moment the team have decided it is working as intended. 

We are looking at head movement boundaries internally, but no news to share currently.  

[zaelu]

10 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

At the moment the team have decided it is working as intended. 

I don't mean to say it's a big deal but it sounds a little odd when something that works obviously not ideally is called: "as intended". It's sort of a throw to the saying: "a problem can't be solved if it's not firstly acknowledged". And the real sad thing I find in this minuscule issue  is that "we" the VR+Pilot body users are such a small "market" that the devs don't really care if we need a feature and if they do it don't really care of a feedback if it works...... "as intended"?
I mean... if the response from the team would have been: "Noted, we'll try to fix it when resources are available" would have been way better and hopeful.
Oh well... 

[ataribaby]

And now Hornet is plagued with same "feature". Complete immersion breaker in VR. I bet for flat as well. Please remove it or make it optional.

[Apache 64]

Am 3.1.2023 um 20:25 schrieb Apache 64:

This should not be a DEV decision, this is a design decision. Someone has decided that the own head is hidden in the F1 view. In all aircraft.
And in Apache it is already like that, except for a few specific viewing angles. the head "flickers" on and off.

Imagine you were in a dogfight in one of the jets and looking over your shoulder and your own helmet would constantly pop into view.

In my opinion, this is not a "wish list" item but a bug (inconsistent).

Someone from the design team should please take another look at this. That would be fatal if it happened the same way in the F-16 and F-18 when they get their first person bodies.

I really love the pilots bodies but this kills the immersion.

 

 

vor 11 Minuten schrieb ataribaby:

And now Hornet is plagued with same "feature". Complete immersion breaker in VR. I bet for flat as well. Please remove it or make it optional.

I was afraid of this  

And as already mentioned: it also disturbs in non-VR

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, ataribaby said:

And now Hornet is plagued with same "feature". Complete immersion breaker in VR. I bet for flat as well. Please remove it or make it optional.

It’s already optional. Turn the pilot off. Solved. 

[ataribaby]

No it is not solved by turning whole pilot off.

[zaelu]

28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s already optional. Turn the pilot off. Solved. 

Why would you waste your time commenting 10 years old obvious stuff about things you don't care?

 

  

8 minutes ago, ataribaby said:

No it is not solved by turning whole pilot off.

It's your fault you didn't explain you mean the auto-showing of the pilots head is the thing you want to turn off 

IMHO the problem exists because it was implemented without any use or alpha/beta test of its sub-function - meaning in VR. It's one of the things nagging people from VR asked and it was made half heartedly and with no care. And now because it's bugged is acknowledged as "as intended" because it is actually functioning as intended. It is a small feature connected to another more general "function" of the game that was of general interest and whoever did it has no intention to rework it to please for such small audience when for his job description the feature works. I.E. "Make sure the head of the pilot is visible in 99.999% of the cases."


 

Edited October 26, 2023 by zaelu

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, ataribaby said:

No it is not solved by turning whole pilot off.

Well you’ve got the choice between seeing your own headless torso or your own head. Or turning the whole thing off. The last options seem the most preferable. 

[ataribaby]

What are you talking about please? There is no option to have pilot body without head, only Show Pilot body when available tick mark. I do not want lose pilot body cos ED implemented it way as it is now as you go out of head to see it when looking back.

 

[Nealius]

There should be an option to show/hide head separate from the body. Same issue for the Hornet now. 

[some1]

10 hours ago, zaelu said:

IMHO the problem exists because it was implemented without any use or alpha/beta test of its sub-function - meaning in VR.

Nah, it's equally bad in 2D, and not only with trackir, it doesn't even work properly with ED's own mouselook implementation. The mouselook automatically moves the camera further from center position simulating the pilot leaning in his seat. That also triggers the new helmet view.

Which is even more preplexing that somebody on the team would claim: "YES, that's what I wanted". I've always though it's just a low priority bug, now I've learned that it's as intended, lol. 

On the CP/G station the head flickers in and out of view with the stock mouselook, it's not even consistently on or off:

Look slightly further aft and it disappears again.

 

[Toge]

What would even be the point of having the head there in the cockpit (1st person) view in the first place? You're never supposed to see it anyway as the camera is always supposed to be inside the head (as @BIGNEWY mentioned "head moving boundaries"), if I understood correctly. Is there some specific case when recording videos for cinematic purposes or something that I/we don't realize? Otherwise I find it absurd that anyone even considered (let alone spent time) adding the head there, or that movement boundaries would be an easier solution than removing the head from the model in the cockpit view.

[BIGNEWY]

The team are taking a look at it and discussing internally. 

thanks

[zaelu]

7 hours ago, Toge said:

What would even be the point of having the head there in the cockpit (1st person) view in the first place? You're never supposed to see it anyway as the camera is always supposed to be inside the head (as @BIGNEWY mentioned "head moving boundaries"), if I understood correctly. Is there some specific case when recording videos for cinematic purposes or something that I/we don't realize? Otherwise I find it absurd that anyone even considered (let alone spent time) adding the head there, or that movement boundaries would be an easier solution than removing the head from the model in the cockpit view.

Yes the boundaries are set low so we can have a Go-Pro like camera over the shoulder of the pilot. That was the most probable scenario this feature was supposed to work. 
A second toggle or option to inhibit this head popping in existence is needed I think to have things working for everybody.

  

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

The team are taking a look at it and discussing internally. 

thanks

Thank you!

 

  

10 hours ago, some1 said:

Nah, it's equally bad in 2D, and not only with trackir, it doesn't even work properly with ED's own mouselook implementation. The mouselook automatically moves the camera further from center position simulating the pilot leaning in his seat. That also triggers the new helmet view.

Which is even more preplexing that somebody on the team would claim: "YES, that's what I wanted". I've always though it's just a low priority bug, now I've learned that it's as intended, lol. 

On the CP/G station the head flickers in and out of view with the stock mouselook, it's not even consistently on or off:

Look slightly further aft and it disappears again.

 

The worst case scenario as "user base" is people flying in VR with 1st person body turned on. Of course there are people flying in 2D and have the 1st person body turned on... I was one of them. But that is still a small minority but probably bigger than the VR one. And of course there are people flying in VR without 1st person pilot body turned on.... like the majority of 2D people. The point is not to be bogged down in these semantics. People flying with 1st person pilot body on are a very small minority especially in VR and the development of features for them is occupying a background position in dev cycles. And is acceptable as reality ofc. 
My "bet" is that most devs don't use VR on daily basis and most probably never use 1st person pilot body. It hinders them in development or is complicating their life so when is for them to implement features for this crowd they are not well prepared and have wrong perception and experience about it. Like having the camera of the Mi24 cpg moving (thus making some people sick), Having the 1st person body twisted (like in F14 or Ah64 CPG) for historical reasoning rather than ergonomics ones for VR use etc. Also I think most people see the 1st person body more like a weird fetish than a immersion feature so this proportionality spills over to developers side also so you have actual development done in these biased conditions.

Edited October 27, 2023 by zaelu

[Voodooflies]

Up on this, please do something, it's quite of a immersion breaker for VR users.

[Nealius]

Would be nice to have it consistent with the current system on the Viper and Hornet, where the head is invisible within reasonable constraints, but appears once the camera position is well outside normal movement range.

[J. T. Frost]

Who doesn't want to single seat with a  headless dummy on Halloween?

Edited November 1, 2024 by J. T. Frost

[Nedum]

What I can say 100% is that what the DCS pilot can map right now when looking to the side is just looking down. 
The important thing here is !down and not back!.

You should watch the video below.The RL pilot you see there moves his body and head to the left to look over his right shoulder, and at the same time he moves his left shoulder forward and his chin up.The DCS pilot cannot move his hips, shoulders, upper body or chin as an RL pilot could.The DCS pilot's upper body is glued to the seat, and he can only move his shoulders to the left or right. What he can “simulate” is looking to the side down, not back! 

As the DCS pilot's body cannot simulate the body movements of a real pilot, the more the player looks backwards, the more the head position and body position no longer match.
The VR player moves his body, and therefore also his head, much more naturally than the DCS pilot can currently simulate.
Or quite simply: the DCS pilot's helmet is only in the way because it cannot simulate the natural movement patterns, the pilot always “sticks” to the seat with his back and that is 100% wrong.
We're playing a combat simulator, and pilots move just like in the video I linked. And this is not represented in any way in DCS, which is why the helmet is very often in the players way. The only RL position if he looks to the sides that would fit this kind of body movement of the DCS pilot is if he were looking sideways and !down!

In the video, it's a fighter pilot strapped to his seat, and yet he's clearly moving more and differently than the DCS pilot. A helicopter pilot has much more room to move his body more extreme.

Everyone can test this, even if you are strapped to a seat. Sit in your car and try to look over your shoulder behind you with only moving one shoulder down and the other one up, both shoulders must always touch the seat, like the Pilot does in DCS. And what you get is, that you only can look to the side and down, not behind you.

If you try to look over your right shoulder behind you, you have to move your upper body to the left and your left shoulder moves forward. And the more you try to look behind you and up, the more this movement will extract.

So, please ED free the upper body of our Pilot, or give us the possibility to disable only the pilot head.

 

Edited July 16 by Nedum