More Logistics Gameplay

[Vampyre]

There is a lot missing on the battlefield logistics side of DCS. I would like to see this more fleshed out. Currently we have CTLD to fill this hole and I have been grateful for the efforts of ciribob for CTLD and Grimes for mist. Those two scripts alone have kept helos like the Huey and Mi-8 relevant in MP. That being said, this sort of gameplay should be native to DCS, not third-party scripting. Casmo did a video about using the CH-47 as a mobile forward FARP recently. That is just one way it can be used.

It would be good to have the option to be able to recover damaged/crashed airframes from around the map. This would require the damaged aircraft to either be persistent for a time period and/or a separate object generated that will be compatible for the helicopter to lift. Asset recovery is a role airframes like the CH-47 are uniquely suited for.

Troop insertion/extraction with corresponding onload and offload time, weight and CG changes to the airframe. This should include staple air assault ground units like towed howitzers and various versions of the HMMWV that the CH-47 would be moving in an actual air assault.

The incorporation of more types of cargos that will have an actual battlefield impact for delivery to forces in the field that need them would flesh out helo logistics for not just the CH-47 but the other transport helos as well.

SAR and CSAR should also be built into the game.

[Phantom88]

I totally agree…If We Could have more logistic/Cargo/troop interactions in DCS it would create a Massive New aspect to DCS and draw more “Civilian “ Flight Simmers who don’t want to necessarily to fly combat missions.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Phantom88

[Nomatic]

Agreed with both. Would love more logistics gameplay. Rearming FOBs and FARPS could be great multiplayer gamplay. Same with medevac. 

[Lace]

I'm hoping this will all be integrated into the new EDDCE.  Logistics will be critical in any dynamic campaign, otherwise it will just be a series of thematically related, but essentially non-persistent single missions (like the current scripted campaigns).  Resupply of airfields, FOBs and FARPS will be critical, and I imagine like any task, could be assigned to any friendly unit on the ORBAT, and flown by either an AI or human player.  I'm hoping this element was the driving influence in choosing a BLUEFOR heavy-lift helicopter for ED's next module, otherwise it is a slightly unusual choice.

[fargo007]

Pointing out that much of what's being asked for here is already possible through the scripting engine. The new CTLD and CSAR available through MOOSE open up tremendous possibilities.

We've been deploying Fat Cow style FARPs, airframe recovery missions (Snake Doctor) as well as a fully operational Rotary Wing logistics network for quite some time now. 

I'm not opposed to ED building some rudimentary stuff in, but you will always get a far better experience with scripting than something from a box.  This is why nobody uses the in-sim troop loading, though it's always been built in.

For the Fat Cow, after deploying, we use an AI 47 to sit there. It's hard to find a pilot that wants to fly to a location, and then sit there for 2 hours, waiting for someone to need fuel.

Now the cargo objects (artillery,scout vehicles, armor, etc) and the FARP ground objects (now the job is done with mods) OTOH, that would be excellent. 

Some of the other interactions I'm looking forward to creating is having a C-130 Squadron land on a makeshift airstrip, forward deploy four OH-58D's for us, and then have a ch-47 Fat Cow come in and fuel/arm them up, and away they go. 

 

[Raptor9]

15 minutes ago, fargo007 said:

I'm not opposed to ED building some rudimentary stuff in, but you will always get a far better experience with scripting than something from a box.

Speaking as someone that does some personal mission-building on the side, many people (such as myself) do not understand scripting and therefore things like MOOSE are out of our capabilities to implement.

And before anyone comes in here with a "just learn to how to script, it's not that hard" quip, remember that many things are not easily learned for many people. It would be like someone saying "Just learn to read Chinese". If only things were that simple in real-life.

[fargo007]

5 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Speaking as someone that does some personal mission-building on the side, many people (such as myself) do not understand scripting and therefore things like MOOSE are out of our capabilities to implement.

And before anyone comes in here with a "just learn to how to script, it's not that hard" quip, remember that many things are not easily learned for many people. It would be like someone saying "Just learn to read Chinese". If only things were that simple in real-life.

We're a community. 

All you have to do is ask.

Many people enjoy helping others, and furnish & support all kinds of scripts, projects and code. and there's so much of it that is released for people to use.  This is how you got CTLD, CSAR, Mist, and MOOSE in the first place. People on the MOOSE discord provide code to each other every day. 

The limits that are going to be hit with asking ED to build such low level details like this into DCS are that it will need to be done in such a basic, rudimentary way that it will please very few if anyone, and the requests to modify it this way or that way will be both endless and tiresome.

I point here to the in-sim handling of ground troops. There it is. Built right in. For YEARS. Nobody uses it. 

 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, fargo007 said:

I point here to the in-sim handling of ground troops. There it is. Built right in. For YEARS. Nobody uses it. 

 

This is true, I've used it plenty with the Hind and Huey, but it's not the most intuitive nor polished. It gets the job done, no arguments there, but for something like the CH-47? We'll want something more involved. We want to see troops exit, vehicles exit, proper weight and balance, and the like.

It's more of a case of adding value and depth to the simulation since you can deploy Abrams and Bradleys with the Huey through CTLD. If we're going to be paying full price for a CH-47, we want something a lot more convincing than what is on offer at the moment right out of the box.

EDIT: Also, there's something to be said for making it a lot more intuitive. I'm saying that as an ArmA 3 and DCS mission maker.

Edited January 10, 2023 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[[DE] T-Bone]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:04 AM, Vampyre said:

There is a lot missing on the battlefield logistics side of DCS. I would like to see this more fleshed out. Currently we have CTLD to fill this hole and I have been grateful for the efforts of ciribob for CTLD and Grimes for mist. Those two scripts alone have kept helos like the Huey and Mi-8 relevant in MP. That being said, this sort of gameplay should be native to DCS, not third-party scripting. Casmo did a video about using the CH-47 as a mobile forward FARP recently. That is just one way it can be used.

It would be good to have the option to be able to recover damaged/crashed airframes from around the map. This would require the damaged aircraft to either be persistent for a time period and/or a separate object generated that will be compatible for the helicopter to lift. Asset recovery is a role airframes like the CH-47 are uniquely suited for.

Troop insertion/extraction with corresponding onload and offload time, weight and CG changes to the airframe. This should include staple air assault ground units like towed howitzers and various versions of the HMMWV that the CH-47 would be moving in an actual air assault.

The incorporation of more types of cargos that will have an actual battlefield impact for delivery to forces in the field that need them would flesh out helo logistics for not just the CH-47 but the other transport helos as well.

SAR and CSAR should also be built into the game.

+1

An extensive internal logistics system should be essential for the Chinook. Just picking up infantry with appropriate animation and weight distribution would be a big win for immersion....

[corbu1]

Agree……I strongly hope the logistics part will be improved with developement of the CH47!

[sorcer3r]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:25 PM, fargo007 said:

 

We've been deploying Fat Cow style FARPs, airframe recovery missions (Snake Doctor) as well as a fully operational Rotary Wing logistics network for quite some time now. 

 

 

 

But those FARPs were preset in the mission editor or is it now possible to spawn working farps during the mission?

[admiki]

Can be spawned.

[sorcer3r]

14 minutes ago, admiki said:

Can be spawned.

And are workling like regular farps? As far as I know the server has to restart the mission in order to make those farps working.

[admiki]

@fargo007is your man.

I know it works, but I have no idea how it works.

[fargo007]

Yes, it absolutely works.  We use the MOOSE CTLD classes for this, which create them without issue. 

It has FSM events that you can tap into and basically do whatever you want.  

Here's some more detail.

Quote

function bsd_ctld:OnAfterCratesBuild(From, Event, To, Group, Unit, Vehicle)

So within that FSM event function, you can pick out the groupname.  In our case "FOB."

Quote

       if string.match(groupName, "FOB") then -- This is where we detect if the built crate is of a certain type that other stuff needs to happen.

Then you spawn the invisible FARP as a static object.

Quote

 

          local FOBFarp = SPAWNSTATIC:NewFromStatic("farpinvis", country.id.USA )

... 

          FOBFarp:SpawnFromCoordinate(Vehicle:GetCoordinate(), math.random(1,359), "FOB/FARP")

          MESSAGE:New("FOB Successfully deployed by " .. PlayerName ,30,""):ToAll()
 

 

These are just some excerpts that show one of many ways it can be done. 

I believe I made a 'walking skeleton' style example of this for the UH-60 mod guys. I'll see if I can dig it up if there's interest.

Remember that you also need to populate the FARPs with the correct objects or vehicles to allow them to provide fuel/rearm/ATC services if you're not spawning them contemporary with the farp object or using a mod that includes that. Adding CTLD troops/crate functionality to the new FOB/FARP is also an option. 

 

[Bananabrai]

I think the logistics stuff will come for sure.
ED stated once they wanted to use the Hind as 'troop transport testbed', basically the same the used the Apache as a test bed for the new FLIR engine.

All this is also needed for the C-130 and probably the dynamic campaign, I remember the scope of the DCS:DCE was huge, with the whole chain of *things* behind a confilct.
I even wonder if moral could become a thing...

I just hope that older modules will benefit from this as well, like the Huey and Hippo, their age really shows more and more.