DDR5 prices in steady free fall...

[EightyDuce]

Might be a good time to grab some RAM, especially for AM5. 

Looks like a solid 32gb 6000 CL32 (can likely be brought down to CL28-30) can be had for under $150 and a 64Gb kit for $310. 

Prices have been on a steady decline over the last few months. We're basically in high-end (or lower) DDR4 territory. Newegg has also been running more and more "sales" on AM5 boards in the 240-270 range on B650E. Things seem to be looking up. 

 

PC Partspicker

[Tiger-II]

I know Asia is working hard to build more "chips", and I think they opened several new factories to fill the backlog.

I won't be building a new gaming rig until either the performance becomes worth it, or my current rig dies.

We seem to have hit a plateau regarding performance. 4090 eats electrons for marginal gain, and the 3080/3090 was questionable before that...

Edited January 25, 2023 by Tiger-II

[Thinder]

It's not the price I would like to see falling, it's the latency.

[EightyDuce]

2 hours ago, Thinder said:

It's not the price I would like to see falling, it's the latency.

Realistically, CAS latency primarily effects first word delay  ie. 7.7ns for 3600CL14 vs 9.0/9.6ns 6000CL28/6200CL30. Once the delay is met, DDR5 is faster than lower latency DDR4 and at today's price it will do it for $50 less. What this translates to is virtually indistinguishable impact to the end-user outside of benchmarks. 

Current gen CPUs with arguably mid-range (6000CL32) are already matching and beating last gen CPUs on what you call "Optimized" aka 3200/3600CL14.

At this point, unless you're on a seriously tight budget or staying on a DDR4 only platform , you'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to justify DDR4 over DDR5. 

[BitMaster]

We should distinguish between Latency and Delay. 

Latency can be sky high if you have enough Hertz to make it even. The bottom line is delay and DDR5 will eventually brake even...now comes the actual "NEW" thing we are all waiting for:

- less voltage ( ehh Not Yet , right now north of 1.3x Volts with most modules ! )

- denser modules ( same, not yet available )  i.e. 4x64GB on Desktop should be possible to DDR specs ( for future DCS Maps & Modules  LoL )

But true, right now I would not hesitate to buy DDR5. Two months ago, no way, way too expensive they were.

 

[LucShep]

I have to agree, if buiding a rig from scratch right now, then DDR5 is the way, be it AMD Ryzen 7XXX or Intel 13th gen.
The only reason I can think not to go for DDR5 is if you're updating a DDR4 system, for example a CPU upgrade on a good DDR4 mem + mobo platform you already own, or if willing to reuse a good kit of DDR4 64GB that you may be already in posession of.

You have to understand that the latency issue of DDR5 was mostly mentioned for the initial kits (4600 to 5200 and CL40+, etc), it's no longer an issue these days with higher speeds and lower latency newest kits, no more than it was for DDR4 in relation to DDR3, and that one over the previous, etc.
What really, really sucks is the motherboards pricing, for both AMD and Intel newest chips rocking DDR5. Any good "budget" mobo now goes over 300€ (ouch!).

After over a year of DDR5 introduction on the market, we got to a point where DDR5 6400 CL32 is cheaper than B-Die DDR4 3600 CL16, and performance of the former is better in 99,9% of gaming situations (although not by a lot), whatever game/sim you throw at them. The gains with memory speed are noticeable, just like previously happened with DDR4, DDR3 and DDR2 over their previous iterations. And it'll only get better from here on.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by LucShep

[BitMaster]

The only thing that would hold me back right now with AM5 and maybe Intel too is the risky thing with 4 Modules.

There seems to be some issues with them at "better" speeds than 4800 or 5200 iirc.

I would like to have 128GB which should be possible with good speeds since the limit they aim at is 256GB, so I would only need either 2x 64GB or 4x 32GBGB, both scenarios are

not really possible right now with confidence. Anyway, I am really happy with what I have and I dont fly DCS that much anymore to justify an upgrade now.

[Tiger-II]

Faster is not always better. My RAM (DDR4) is capable of running at 3600 MHz, but the system is actually measurably SLOWER than if it runs at 3466 MHz. The reason is the interleaving the memory bus frequency with CPU frequency, and at the slightly lower speed the clocks align more frequently, otherwise at the "faster" speed, the CPU is always waiting for memory to become available.

[Mars Exulte]

That's going to be different with each system, though, and takes ''fine tuning'' to the next level.

[Steel Jaw]

Much rather see GPU prices plummet. 

[Schmafuzius]

if GPU prizes drop too I can finally start to build my new rig...

I thinking about it for a while now... my system is still capable to run DCS but it could be way better.

[Dragon1-1]

I've made a budget rig based around a 5800X3D, matched DDR4 and my old 1080ti, which I could possibly upgrade to a 2080ti if I can get a deal on one. The system has its limits, but it's pretty great for what I use it for.

BTW, what are people saying about Titan RTX? Has anyone had any experience with those? They were the 90 series equivalent back then, and look pretty formidable. Still very expensive, and not exactly widely available on aftermarket, but could be a viable upgrade path for my particular rig, if I don't have anything better to do with the money.

[Thinder]

On 1/25/2023 at 8:55 PM, BitMaster said:

We should distinguish between Latency and Delay. 

Latency can be sky high if you have enough Hertz to make it even. The bottom line is delay and DDR5 will eventually brake even...now comes the actual "NEW" thing we are all waiting for:

- less voltage ( ehh Not Yet , right now north of 1.3x Volts with most modules ! )

- denser modules ( same, not yet available )  i.e. 4x64GB on Desktop should be possible to DDR specs ( for future DCS Maps & Modules  LoL )

But true, right now I would not hesitate to buy DDR5. Two months ago, no way, way too expensive they were.

 

Not working equally well for Intel and Zen4 which cannot take full advantage of their Cache, all Ryzen architectures are designed for lower latency, higher frequency is all very well but if they are pushing it so high, the reason is not performance, it is because their chips cannot be stable at lower Cl, as simple as that, no matter what they come up with as selling arguments.

Why do you think AMD actually increases the size of their Zen4 cache when a Cl14 kit allows for an improvement of 18.91% in graphics and 14.09% in CPU performance at 4K over the 5600X with the Zen3 3D, you really think they didn't test them, don't know about it and just follow a gut instinct with a conceptual design which they are not sure how it works?

They completely departed from the previous AMD way of providing players with something they can handle easily like the 5600X, is cheap, performant and added tons of features and increased frequencies to compete with Intel, only because they know damned well they can't rely on the RAM manufacturers to keep up right now...

So RAM manufacturers can try to sell me 6000 Mhz all they want, I still will wait until they stop taking people for guinea pig with budgets that serve only their R&D momentum and come up with a die as good at those speed as B.die Cl14 is at 3600Mhz, that would be Cl 24 maximum, Cl28 for a 7200 Mhz and we're years away from this happening.

Feel free to contribute to their commercial race with your dosh, they won't have mine right now.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Thinder

[SkateZilla]

AM5 is right behind DDR5.

[Hoirtel]

For a new DDR5 build (just for DCS) what would be the priority? lower speed+ higher latency and 64Gb or higher speed lower latency 32Gb. As noted in this thread the DDR5 scene is changing now and there is a quite a few 64Gb kits for sale albeit slower. 

I personally am starting to think that 32gb is enough. I recently bought a 64Gb DDR4 kit to upgrade my current PC, never seen it go above the high twenties. No change in performance at all. I have tried this on large MP missions etc. Would be interested to know if anyone has any experience of their system actually using more than 32Gb. Maybe because I have 24Gb VRAM...  

Edited February 10, 2023 by Hoirtel

[EightyDuce]

14 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

For a new DDR5 build (just for DCS) what would be the priority? lower speed+ higher latency and 64Gb or higher speed lower latency 32Gb. As noted in this thread the DDR5 scene is changing now and there is a quite a few 64Gb kits for sale albeit slower. 

I personally am starting to think that 32gb is enough. I recently bought a 64Gb DDR4 kit to upgrade my current PC, never seen it go above the high twenties. No change in performance at all. I have tried this on large MP missions etc. Would be interested to know if anyone has any experience of their system actually using more than 32Gb. Maybe because I have 24Gb VRAM...  

 

Speed VS. latency is largely going to depend on whether you're on Intel or AMD. AMD sweet-spot is 6000 +-200, so you would want DDR5 6000 with CL28-32, for X3D chips it's less important as they try to keep things out of RAM so the benefit of lower latency RAM is less prominent. For Intel, you want as fast as you can afford (6800+). Now, you can score a fairly inexpensive kits of Hynix A-die (DDR5 6400-6600) and OC them to 7000+. That being said, the benefit of spending time to overclock/tune RAM is likely to yield negligible real-world noticeable performance (outside of benchmarks).

[Hoirtel]

11 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

Speed VS. latency is largely going to depend on whether you're on Intel or AMD. AMD sweet-spot is 6000 +-200, so you would want DDR5 6000 with CL28-32, for X3D chips it's less important as they try to keep things out of RAM so the benefit of lower latency RAM is less prominent. For Intel, you want as fast as you can afford (6800+). Now, you can score a fairly inexpensive kits of Hynix A-die (DDR5 6400-6600) and OC them to 7000+. That being said, the benefit of spending time to overclock/tune RAM is likely to yield negligible real-world noticeable performance (outside of benchmarks).

Thanks, I think I wrote the question a bit badly, basically what seems to be available is decent 32gb kits, and not so good 64gb kits. What would be a the priority? 

[EightyDuce]

4 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Thanks, I think I wrote the question a bit badly, basically what seems to be available is decent 32gb kits, and not so good 64gb kits. What would be a the priority? 

There are quite a few good 64gb kits, at least for AMD. I just grabbed a 64Gb DDR5 6000 CL32 for $349.

Again that will depend if you want Intel or AMD. 

[Hoirtel]

3 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

There are quite a few good 64gb kits, at least for AMD. I just grabbed a 64Gb DDR5 6000 CL32 for $349.

Again that will depend if you want Intel or AMD. 

Yeah not sure if I can get a 64GB kit with that latency over here but it's changing fairly quickly. At this point I guess I am going AMD X3D so 6000 will be fine. If that turns out to be inferior then I'll be going 13th gen and will want much higher speed. I will also be mildly annoyed as could have bought this already!

[LucShep]

On 2/11/2023 at 7:14 PM, Hoirtel said:

Yeah not sure if I can get a 64GB kit with that latency over here but it's changing fairly quickly. At this point I guess I am going AMD X3D so 6000 will be fine. If that turns out to be inferior then I'll be going 13th gen and will want much higher speed. I will also be mildly annoyed as could have bought this already!

Right now a great option for a kit of DDR5 64GB is probably this one (black or white, your pick):

https://www.gskill.com/product/165/374/1665644504/F5-6400J3239G32GX2-TZ5RK

https://www.gskill.com/product/165/374/1665644571/F5-6400J3239G32GX2-TZ5RS

With Intel 12th and 13th gen you can use it as is (XMP ready) or try to overclock it (6800 CL32 and faster is possible, but then 6400 CL32 is already plenty fast).
With AMD 7000 series (AM5) it can also be used but needs to be downclocked to 6000 CL30, by manually adjust timings (and CL28 may also be possible, I suspect).
This particular kit is Hynix M-die (as are the higher binned 6000 CL30 kits) which means it's the good stuff, and costs around $380.

From there on things get really expensive - enter the law of diminishing returns.
Better than this is Hynix A-die (usually 7600Mhz CL34 and better) but then that goes for double the price(!), and 64GB kits for that speed/latency are rare as hen's teeth.
These ultra expensive kits for Intel 12th/13th gen are simply not worth the price, not at the moment, and not for simulation games such as DCS.

Edited February 12, 2023 by LucShep
added links

[EightyDuce]

1 hour ago, Hoirtel said:

Yeah not sure if I can get a 64GB kit with that latency over here but it's changing fairly quickly. At this point I guess I am going AMD X3D so 6000 will be fine. If that turns out to be inferior then I'll be going 13th gen and will want much higher speed. I will also be mildly annoyed as could have bought this already!

Gotcha. Yeah, many of us waiting on the X3D performance. Though at this point I'm fully vested in AM5, but benchmarks will dictate if I'll be staying with my 7700X or going X3D; whether it's the 7950X3D or 7800X3D. 

This is the kit I got, it's 299 now which is bonkers for 64gb. According to the manufacturing code they are hynix A die.  

G.SKILL Ripjaws S5 Series 64GB (2 x 32GB) 288-Pin PC RAM DDR5 6000 (PC5 48000) Desktop Memory Model F5-6000J3238G32GX2-RS5K

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-64gb/p/N82E16820374411?Item=N82E16820374411&Source=socialshare&cm_mmc=snc-social-_-sr-_-20-374-411-_-02112023

[Hoirtel]

Thanks, I will keep my eye on what's around, just looking at the two major UK retailers there are no 64gb kits lower than CL40... But when I get to actually buy I may have more options and Amazon might be a better bet.

Another thing that I heard is that secondary timings are really important with DDR5 and I have seen some 32gb kits with low CAS but then higher secondary timings. Is it the secondary timings that can indicate the quality/vendor of the memory chips? There are quite a few good looking Corsair kits but I heard these use only micron which doesn't seem to be in high regard. I wasn't anning on overclocking myself, but I guess I would if there was some perf to be had. I think these micron kits have no headroom but if they are good to start with then why would I avoid these? 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Hoirtel

[EightyDuce]

Figured I'd throw this in here for those that have picked up some Hynix M or A die kits for AM5. 

Buildzoid "cookie cutter" settings for AM5 using memory with hynix chips. This is significantly better than any XMP/EXPO profile and is a very good baseline for doing further tuning....or you can just plug them in and call it a day, collecting free performance boost. 

 

 

[EightyDuce]

Also it appears that hardware unboxed did a video using some of his settings. 

 

It would seem AM5 is sensitive to secondary and tertiary timings, even more so than primary timings. It also appears that memory manufacturers are using very relaxed timings beyond the primaries for whatever reason and thus leave a lot of performance on the table. Even EXPO profiles are effected as they aren't long enough to incorporate all of the timings which once again leaves performance on the table. 

Unknown how much this effects DCS, but honestly, there's no reason not to do this easy tune and grab up performance... Unless your memory can't handle them (which it should be able to no problem for Hynix), you're guaranteed a net performance gain. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by EightyDuce

[Hoirtel]

Yes I have heard about secondary timings with DDR5. Thanks for the links, not bought my RAM yet, but looks like I will have to take 32Gb if I want to get a decent kit. Nothing 64Gb/6000mhz available here yet that isnt CL40. That will have to be an upgrade down the line. Although I recently got 64 for my DDR4 system and DCS doesn't use it so maybe not an issue anyway.