Aircraft liveries: optional or mandatory?

[Exorcet]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well the topic is a poll asking me for my opinion. It’s not a problem for me or anyone else to have one. 

And no one is arguing that. What I said is:

Quote

you don't realize that your opinions are your own and no one else's

If you're the only person on the planet that thinks images are needed in a livery manager, that might indicate that images aren't needed in a livery manager for it to be useful to people in general.

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

If you're the only person on the planet that thinks images are needed in a livery manager, that might indicate that images aren't needed in a livery manager for it to be useful to people in general.

I think if people are selecting artwork they probably want to see what it looks like. That’s just common sense. When you go to the User Files section, do you see pictures of the liveries? Yes, just like that. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I think if people are selecting artwork they probably want to see what it looks like. That’s just common sense. When you go to the User Files section, do you see pictures of the liveries? Yes, just like that. 

 

Since you're just repeating yourself, you can probably find an answer by rereading the thread. What point are you even trying to make?

 

Anyway I'm posting because I thought of another option to add, which would be "remove liveries for aircraft not installed", it seems like something most people concerned about space would want based on their comments.

Maybe we could list the suggestions in the first post @Hardcard?

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Anyway I'm posting because I thought of another option to add, which would be "remove liveries for aircraft not installed", it seems like something most people concerned about space would want based on their comments.

The game includes liveries for all the aircraft because although you might not own them you will still see them, both in SP and online. And again, removing the standard skins interferes with other players use of them online. Can be an exploit etc. Not a great idea. 
Running the longer version of Repair DCS I believe will remove unused skins though. Probably like the ones installed for DLC campaigns and such. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Exorcet said:

If you're the only person on the planet that thinks images are needed in a livery manager, that might indicate that images aren't needed in a livery manager for it to be useful to people in general.

Images might not be necessary but they would be nice- the issue is how fast would it take for them to load. It's not necessary if the take too long

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Images might not be necessary but they would be nice- the issue is how fast would it take for them to load. It's not necessary if the take too long

Why would they take a long time to load? Does anything else you look at online do that? The other skin downloader I’m referring to has images and they load instantly just fine. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, upyr1 said:

Images might not be necessary but they would be nice- the issue is how fast would it take for them to load. It's not necessary if the take too long

That is the consensus reached yes. I have not seen a single post against images.

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

you might not own them you will still see them

Incorrect. This will change on a case by case basis.

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And again, removing the standard skins interferes with other players use of them online. Can be an exploit etc. Not a great idea. 

This is unrelated to the livery manager idea and has solutions have been provided already multiple times over.

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Running the longer version of Repair DCS I believe will remove unused skins though. Probably like the ones installed for DLC campaigns and such.

Which doesn't make a livery manager any less useful.

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Which doesn't make a livery manager any less useful.

Well there isn’t a livery manager in the game now. So in the meantime that will do the job. 

23 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

This is unrelated to the livery manager idea

If the purpose of the livery manager is to remove the standard content from the game, yes it is a problem. Since both parties need to have the liveries installed in order for them to function in MP. It’s also a cheat or exploit because for example you could remove the camouflage skins from aircraft like the P-47 and F-86 forcing them all to appear as the bright metal default skin when their player thinks they’re camouflaged. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Incorrect. This will change on a case by case basis.

You can indeed see other aircraft which you don’t own the module for. I’m sure you know that. So you will also see their liveries. 

[Northstar98]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

Yes but other players do use the standard skins and they’re relying on everyone else to have them installed in order to do so (in MP).

So then they shouldn't delete them. We've been through this already.

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

I think many people don’t realize how this works.

The only person I see is you. You're constantly bringing up perceived "problems" that have been addressed and rectified over and over again.

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

Any player uses the skins with the expectation that they’ll be seen by the other players. That requires both parties to have them installed.

And if I never fly missions that use certain liveries?

What about people who play SP, where this doesn't factor at all?

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

Allowing players to uninstall them at random basically makes selecting them pointless.

Again, been through this already.

You can already delete liveries as you see fit, the problem is that they'll automatically get downloaded again when you update/repair. So you're talking about an issue that's already present without involving a livery manager to exist.

If I don't see a point to having a livery, then yes, to me that livery is pointless. If other people want to use that livery, that's perfectly fine, what I do with my install affects nobody else but me, seeing as 99.99% of the time I fly single player, in missions I make and the other 0.01% I fly in multiplayer servers that I myself am hosting.

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

Let alone that eliminating certain skins can be an exploit.

Another one we've been through - if this is going to be a problem, have it be something the IC checks - at the discretion of who's managing the server.

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

It’s an important aspect of that game and a standard feature as much as anything else.

Not for me it isn't, I could probably delete 75% of them and not be adversely affected in the slightest.

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

There are better and easier ways to manage the install size.

Such as? So far you've given me "buy a new SSD".

And it's not even just about install size (though that's by far the dominant reason) - I make edits to the description.lua such that liveries are better organised and named in a consistent way - some liveries are completely unorganised (such as the MiG-21bis), some liveries are given completely ambiguous names (like "af standard").

I can make those edits just fine, but whenever I update or run a repair, the originals get downloaded and now I have a load of duplicates I need to delete.

On 1/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, SharpeXB said:

And overall it’s a small portion of that.

But not a trivial one.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

And it's not even just about install size (though that's by far the dominant reason) - I make edits to the description.lua such that liveries are better organised and named in a consistent way - some liveries are completely unorganised (such as the MiG-21bis), some liveries are given completely ambiguous names (like "af standard").

I can make those edits just fine, but whenever I update or run a repair, the originals get downloaded and now I have a load of duplicates I need to delete.

This is your own problem, not something ED can cure you of. The futility of such obsessive compulsive behavior should be obvious.

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Another one we've been through - if this is going to be a problem, have it be something the IC checks - at the discretion of who's managing the server.

Indeed the standard skins should be part of the IC. But giving the players a tool which causes problems with this seems counterproductive. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Such as? So far you've given me "buy a new SSD"

It’s easier to manage the install size by adding or removing maps as needed. They’re large files and are easily handled in the module manager. 

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

This is your own problem, not something ED can cure you of.

What are you talking about?

Firstly, I'm very sorry you think me thinking that consistency and things being organised better is a "problem" - I am not looking to be cured of it. And hang on weren't you complaining about how stuff needs to be organised for a livery manager to work? You're sending me mixed messages here.

Secondly, a livery manager would deal with this secondary issue completely.

Also, I love how you completely ignored like 90% of the reply to you.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The futility of such obsessive compulsive behavior should be obvious.

Oh really doctor? It's obssessive compulsive behaviour to like stuff that's less of an inconsistent, arbitrary mess?

Do you think it's a sensible idea that multiple different liveries for the same aircraft are called the exact same thing? So if you use the CJTF "countries", you can't see at first glance which one is which?

Do you think it's a sensible idea that when I select the MiG-21bis and set the country to the USSR, every single one of its 75 liveries appears in the list, instead of the 7 that are actually applicable to the USSR? Meaning I have to go through a list that's over 1000% larger than it should be, to find the liveries that actually apply to the country selected.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Indeed the standard skins should be part of the IC.

So glad you agree.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

But giving the players a tool which causes problems with this seems counterproductive.

It doesn't cause any more problems than the current system and (to use one of your talking points) I don't see anybody but you complaining about such a thing.

How many times does this "point" need to be addressed?

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s easier to manage the install size by adding or removing maps as needed. They’re large files and are easily handled in the module manager. 

Okay, so it's fine for you to remove terrains using a similar manager, but the exact same concept applied to the liveries is a big no-no?

Edited January 30, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

42 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Oh really doctor? It's obssessive compulsive behaviour to like stuff that's less of inconsistent, arbitrary mess?

Do you think it's a sensible idea that multiple different liveries for the same aircraft are called the exact same thing?

Do you think it's a sensible idea that when I select the MiG-21bis and set the country to the USSR, every single one of its 75 liveries appears in the list, instead of the 7 that are actually applicable to the USSR?

Renaming tons of files on your machine so they can just get overwritten is futile behavior. That should be obvious. If you think something is broken perhaps make a bug report on it. But you’re wasting your own time with stuff like this, that’s your choice. 

47 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Okay, so it's fine for you to remove terrains using a similar manager, but the exact same concept applied to the liveries is a big no-no?

Managing terrains on your machine doesn’t affect other players. And it’s easier. 

[Northstar98]

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Renaming tons of files on your machine so they can just get overwritten is futile behavior.

They don't get overwritten, liveries I've changed get duplicated (because I've used a different folder name to make sure that doesn't happen and to make them easier to find). All I have to do is delete the duplicates, which doesn't take much time (I haven't done it for many of them), but it's time I wouldn't have to spend if I had a livery manager.

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That should be obvious.

It wouldn't if I had a livery manager - that should be obvious.

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But you’re wasting your own time with stuff like this, that’s your choice. 

Time I wouldn't have to waste, if I had a livery manager.

 

EDIT: As for managing terrains is easier - it's only easier because a livery manager doesnt exist, which is why one is being requested.

Plus, if I'm going to be deleting anything, it's going to be things I don't use and don't forsee myself using.

As for affecting other players, we've been over the this over and over again, I'm not going to keep repeating myself, for you to ignore it again.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

It wouldn't if I had a livery manager - that should be obvious.

A livery manager would indeed help manage the user created skins. But those are probably beyond help at this stage. They would all need to be formatted and submitted to the manager. Likely most of those creators are gone and the files are outdated. Again it took something like ten years for this to show up in the other sim. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for one here.

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

A livery manager would indeed help manage the user created skins.

Why are you bringing up user created skins again?

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But those are probably beyond help at this stage.

The only thing that's beyond help at this stage, is you.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Why are you bringing up user created skins again?

That’s indeed something this could handle. In the other sim that’s all it’s used for. Again because the official skins aren’t optional. And the sheer volume of user created skins demands something to manage them. Handling User Skins is the only use I’d be in favor of for DCS. 

[upyr1]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:05 AM, SharpeXB said:

A livery manager would indeed help manage the user created skins.

 

On 1/30/2023 at 12:06 PM, Northstar98 said:

Why are you bringing up user created skins again?

On 1/30/2023 at 9:05 AM, SharpeXB said:

I had to actually see what he said, but I suggested connecting the livery manager to the user files section as well. 

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, upyr1 said:

 

I had to actually see what he said, but I suggested connecting the livery manager to the user files section as well. 

The user files are harder to integrate and less important though. They're optional in the first place, so they don't really have an impact on space.

It would be nice to include user skins in the manager, but it's more of reach feature than a primary one. Also by having the manager, we might open up room for module developers to make more skins without worrying about bloating DCS install size (this is part of the inspiration behind the Extra category I mentioned in my example image).

[upyr1]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:19 AM, Exorcet said:

The user files are harder to integrate and less important though. They're optional in the first place, so they don't really have an impact on space.

It would be nice to include user skins in the manager, but it's more of reach feature than a primary one. Also by having the manager, we might open up room for module developers to make more skins without worrying about bloating DCS install size (this is part of the inspiration behind the Extra category I mentioned in my example image).

At the bare minimum it would simply be a matter of including the user files section with a category called user created liveries. Orginzing them into one of the other categories would be a bit tricker. 

[Rudel_chw]

Less than 40 people have bothered to answer the Poll, so it seems to me that the average DCS user is not concerned about the stock liveries disk footprint.

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

Less than 40 people have bothered to answer the Poll, so it seems to me that the average DCS user is not concerned about the stock liveries disk footprint.

That the topic seems to come up so much may hint that it's more of a concern than it appears. Only a portion of a portion of a portion of players are going to even find the poll. How many people respond to the average wish list poll anyway?

[draconus]

On 2/5/2023 at 8:01 PM, Atazar SPN said:

Lebanon, for example, has several units of Mig-29. I don't know the model, but I don't understand that its skin is not included in the general library.

Oh, really, have they, or it was just a political offer?

On 2/5/2023 at 9:15 PM, Exorcet said:

How many people respond to the average wish list poll anyway?

Usually a few hundreds.

Edited February 6, 2023 by draconus