DCS: AH-64D Flight Model discussion

[corbu1]

Am 20.5.2023 um 01:28 schrieb NeedzWD40:

I tested the FM and SAS changes today in a variety of trials and here are my current observations:

FMC off is markedly improved, with far more stability in hover, flight, and aerobatics. Pretty much translates 1:1 with the FTR depressed. It feels possible to get into a hover without lots of oscillations now. Aerobatics are markedly improved, with a lot of the troublesome characteristics (excessive roll tendency, yaw oscillations) gone now. Rolls and loops can be executed well and with precision. Hovering feels more like it does with other helicopters, with only minor cyclic changes to keep it steady. I was able to take my hands off the collective and pedals, using only the cyclic to maintain position. If a heading change was required, it wasn't nearly the same fight as it was in the past, with either FTR or pedal.

SAS behavior with roll and yaw is markedly improved, with the tendency to slip into snap rolls significantly reduced. I tried to induce the previous snap roll behavior and was unable to get an unwanted roll to occur, but someone with more issues with it will need to test as I was careful to not get into it (pressing FTR for evasive usually kept me safe).

Taxi behavior with tailwheel unlocked is still something of a challenge, with oscillations still occurring on the pedals. It's not impossible to dial in, but I suspect that most will still have major problems with taxiing and rolling takeoffs.

Takeoff and landing is no longer a "jump" up or down to stay safe and my general feeling is that I can get light on the wheels without risking a rollover. There's still a tendency for the aircraft to want to tip, but it's not nearly as pronounced as it used to be.

Overall, I find it an incremental improvement, but if you were struggling in the past I don't think the recent patch will change perceptions. It hasn't gone to "easy," but it has tamed some of the more annoying quirks.

I installed today the latest OB Patch and did some flying with the AH-64D testing the FM changes.

I really like the changes done to the FM, especially with FT interrupted while FTR pressed and hold. The AC is much more stable then and it makes maneuvering with FTR pressed much better. 
 

I confirm your detailed report, though haven‘t tried aerobatics with the changes, but will certainly try some loops the following days……

[kdfw]

since you don't need full cyclic authority to fly the thing due to the cyclic being so sensitive, setting the cyclic axis saturation to 50% calms things down a whole lot.  

Edited May 22, 2023 by kdfw

[Hotdognz]

3 hours ago, kdfw said:

since you don't need fully cyclic authority to fly the thing due to the cyclic being so sensitive, setting the cyclic axis saturation to 50% calms things down a whole lot.  

Which Saturation the X or Y or both

[jubuttib]

17 hours ago, Nereid said:

It's a helicopter, so it shouldn't be easy.

Sure, and that's entirely fair, I just personally wasn't expecting it to be _the toughest_ helicopter to fly.

[SloppyDog]

9 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

Which Saturation the X or Y or both

You change the Y saturation.

[Nereid]

On 5/22/2023 at 8:36 AM, jubuttib said:

Sure, and that's entirely fair, I just personally wasn't expecting it to be _the toughest_ helicopter to fly.

The last time I flew the Mi-24, it was tougher to fly.

[Shadok]

Hi,

 Using a ffb joystick, I can't say the FM is improved for me. To reduce the sensivity of the joystick, we usualy modify axis saturation or curves. But with a ffb joystick, this option desynchronize the real position of the stick with the ffb motor of the joystick (and this this the same with others modules, we can feel it with UH-1 or MI8 when using trim button for example).

What can really help ffb joystick users can be an option that make believe to the joystick that the setting of saturation is 100% when in reality this is something else. I don't know how difficult this is to implement, but because this is concerning multiple modules, I think this can be interesting.

Thanks

[Amarok_73]

2 hours ago, Shadok said:

But with a ffb joystick, this option desynchronize the real position of the stick with the ffb motor of the joystick

I agree, that possiblity to change curves, would to some degree improve FFB users life, so I've already posted this issue about year ago, but so far, there's no any response from the ED regarding this issue.

[KeyserSoze62]

I'm finding the latest FM changes to have really helped and I'm much better on hovering IGE and OGE and decelerating to an OGE hover and taking up a position. Maneuvering with the FTR held is also terrific. However, decelerating to a nice landing on a Helipad or even just to a specific spot I seem to have to really fight the SAS at low speeds and low altitude. I realized just now that the Hover Hold is actually going active when I get around 10 feet and less than maybe 10 knots so it feels like I'm having to fight through the hold for any yaw or pitch adjustments as I'm landing and its causing me to over control. I have Virpil stick with their long curved extension and virpil pedals. Just can't seem to get consistent in those last 10-15 feet or so landing.

Any suggestions?  I'm running good curves and adjusted Y sats etc. I can handle it well everywhere except that last 10 feet landing. Should I be holding FTR all the way down?

Thanks for any feedback.

[admiki]

1 hour ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

I'm finding the latest FM changes to have really helped and I'm much better on hovering IGE and OGE and decelerating to an OGE hover and taking up a position. Maneuvering with the FTR held is also terrific. However, decelerating to a nice landing on a Helipad or even just to a specific spot I seem to have to really fight the SAS at low speeds and low altitude. I realized just now that the Hover Hold is actually going active when I get around 10 feet and less than maybe 10 knots so it feels like I'm having to fight through the hold for any yaw or pitch adjustments as I'm landing and its causing me to over control. I have Virpil stick with their long curved extension and virpil pedals. Just can't seem to get consistent in those last 10-15 feet or so landing.

Any suggestions?  I'm running good curves and adjusted Y sats etc. I can handle it well everywhere except that last 10 feet landing. Should I be holding FTR all the way down?

Thanks for any feedback.

Hover hold? It won't activate unless YOU activate attitude hold and it won't be active while holding FTR. Besides it's active only <5 knots.

Try getting FPV on your landing spot and once real close try holding FTR. Yes you lose SCAS, but I found it a bit over-eager and sometimes fight with it. Once happy with your position release FTR. With FTR depressed I have no problems maintaining stable hover. One other benefit is that way you know your pedal servo has full range of travel available to maintain heading.

[KeyserSoze62]

7 hours ago, admiki said:

Hover hold? It won't activate unless YOU activate attitude hold and it won't be active while holding FTR. Besides it's active only <5 knots.

Try getting FPV on your landing spot and once real close try holding FTR. Yes you lose SCAS, but I found it a bit over-eager and sometimes fight with it. Once happy with your position release FTR. With FTR depressed I have no problems maintaining stable hover. One other benefit is that way you know your pedal servo has full range of travel available to maintain heading.

Maybe I'm using the wrong term regarding the hold but No I'm not activating anything myself.  And it could be below 5 knots but its the attitude hold that you can see come active on the controls indicator. It activates on lift too which keeps you straight with no pedal input.  Excuse my ignorance of the exact technical terms but thats what it seems i'm fighting on landing. I will try the FTR as I'm coming down and see if that helps.

[admiki]

Ah, OK, that's heading hold.

[pii]

On 5/26/2023 at 10:21 AM, KeyserSoze62 said:

Maybe I'm using the wrong term regarding the hold but No I'm not activating anything myself.  And it could be below 5 knots but its the attitude hold that you can see come active on the controls indicator. It activates on lift too which keeps you straight with no pedal input.  Excuse my ignorance of the exact technical terms but thats what it seems i'm fighting on landing. I will try the FTR as I'm coming down and see if that helps.

Isn't there an issue with low and slow handling? They mentioned it in the patch notes. Also, You don't have to engage any hold modes to make a landing. I personally disengage them and land manually. 

[admiki]

1 hour ago, pii said:

Isn't there an issue with low and slow handling? They mentioned it in the patch notes. Also, You don't have to engage any hold modes to make a landing. I personally disengage them and land manually. 

What issue?

[pii]

2 hours ago, admiki said:

What issue?

Handling of helo when low and slow. For example, for me, it gets "sloppy"' and feels like I'm in a boat on the water.  

[admiki]

That's largely fixed in this latest patch. 

IMO, people flying DCS Apache will have a lot better results if they stop flying solely by IHADSS and start looking outside.

That and correct use of trim.

Edited May 27, 2023 by admiki

[Floyd1212]

I used to get away with not trimming as I came into a hover from speed, and then tapping trim and setting ATT Hold once stable.  With the latest patch the aircraft feels more wobbly at low speeds when FTR is not pressed, and trying to settle into a hover.  Especially pedal inputs trying to maintain a heading as I also maintain a position.  I get more over-corrections back and forth on the pedals than before.

Sounds like the latest patch helps stability of the aircraft while FTR is held, which I know is the proper way to do it.  Time to remap the FTR button on my Warthog stick so it's easier to press and hold for longer periods.  The TMS hat (below the red button) has a very strong return spring, and holding this up for TFR gets fatiguing very quickly.

[Sandman1330]

5 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I used to get away with not trimming as I came into a hover from speed, and then tapping trim and setting ATT Hold once stable.  With the latest patch the aircraft feels more wobbly at low speeds when FTR is not pressed, and trying to settle into a hover.  Especially pedal inputs trying to maintain a heading as I also maintain a position.  I get more over-corrections back and forth on the pedals than before.

Sounds like the latest patch helps stability of the aircraft while FTR is held, which I know is the proper way to do it.  Time to remap the FTR button on my Warthog stick so it's easier to press and hold for longer periods.  The TMS hat (below the red button) has a very strong return spring, and holding this up for TFR gets fatiguing very quickly.

Try using the CMS hat for trim instead, it’s in a much more natural position.

[Floyd1212]

28 minutes ago, Sandman1330 said:

Try using the CMS hat for trim instead, it’s in a much more natural position.

Yeah, I've considered that, but the CMS hat on my stick is quite mushy, but mostly in the "press" direction.  It would probably work better than the TMS hat for holding in the "up" direction, though.

[KeyserSoze62]

8 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I used to get away with not trimming as I came into a hover from speed, and then tapping trim and setting ATT Hold once stable.  With the latest patch the aircraft feels more wobbly at low speeds when FTR is not pressed, and trying to settle into a hover.  Especially pedal inputs trying to maintain a heading as I also maintain a position.  I get more over-corrections back and forth on the pedals than before.

Sounds like the latest patch helps stability of the aircraft while FTR is held, which I know is the proper way to do it.  Time to remap the FTR button on my Warthog stick so it's easier to press and hold for longer periods.  The TMS hat (below the red button) has a very strong return spring, and holding this up for TFR gets fatiguing very quickly.

Agree the overall stability while holding FTR is greatly improved but there seems to an exception at a certain point. Slow or slow and low. I can hold FTR to decelerate to a hover position but can't actually get in to a stopped stable hover while holding it. I have to release just before a full stop and then adjust, trim and then I can set holds.

I get close while holding FTR and then what seems like the smallest adjustment of controls and the ride is on. It also seems small Collective changes are unsettling the aircraft much more than before. Perhaps it calls for big changes to my curves and sats for this model but I am overall flying much better just trimming as I go and can achieve great hovers without holding FTR the whole time so hesitant to change the settings right now.

All part of the fun with a WIP. I'm still enjoying it much more with this update.

[placsea]

If the current version had the roll/pitch changes but the yaw remained unchanged it would be perfect. It wants ALOT more left pedal and even slowly putting in collective the nose just wants to go making even gradual decelerations sloppy, back to messing with controls I guess.

[pii]

16 hours ago, admiki said:

That's largely fixed in this latest patch. 

IMO, people flying DCS Apache will have a lot better results if they stop flying solely by IHADSS and start looking outside.

That and correct use of trim.

 

This is after the last patch and I believe the patch notes mention it being Improved but still WIP

[jubuttib]

On 5/24/2023 at 1:03 AM, Nereid said:

The last time I flew the Mi-24, it was tougher to fly.

Dang, wonder when that was. The stabilization and damping on the Hind is (for me) absolute miles beyond what the Apache can do for me, and the mass also makes it slow to get moving out of a hover. And this is with an unsprung stick, not even using the "easy mode" 4-way trim hat that will make you the second most stable helicopter in the world (after the Ka-50).

I wanna preface the following with making it clear that I don't consider the Apache "impossible" to fly or anything like that, and I have gotten used to it enough to hover it decently, and get it into hover hold. Turning off IHADSS and using the trim properly all help. And the stability has improved when holding in force trim button, i.e. with the SCAS mostly off. This is just comparative talk, it is significantly harder in ever way at low speeds for me than any other helicopter (including the Huey, Hind, Hip, Black Shark, Gazelle, Blackhawk mod and Little Bird mod).

The Apache's main issue for me, beyond just it requiring constant little inputs (which is fine, the Huey requires that too and it doesn't bother me none) is that whenever the Apache twitches a bit, it accelerates off to the side _so much faster_ than anything else in DCS, for me at least.

Hind or Hip gets nudged a bit off kilter? It'll eventually start to drift that way, but it takes a while, and the stability augmentation are already reduces these random little twitches a lot. Huey is a bit faster, and there's no stability augmentation, so you need to work with it more.

But the Apache, it has the double whammy of not wanting to sit stably holding its position via stability augmentation, and needing constant nudging like the Huey, it also gets out of sorts faster than the others, so you need to be really quick about it too. The most annoying part about that is that if you fly with "Center position trim" option enabled, you can move you stick MUCH faster than in instant or unsprung trim modes, which makes it a LOT easier to control the helicopter in a hover. With center position trim I feel like I can keep up with the helicopter to hold it in a hover, it's just some work to do it, while the unsprung trim mode (my preferred one) makes me lag behind it badly. I'd honestly rate the Apache's stability a lot higher if I could move the stick in unsprung as I can in center position trim.

The other issue I've had is with the stability augmentation itself. When reviewing footage I've seen instances where a disturbance happens, and instead of trying to correct/compensate for it, it ends up making the helicopter lean into it harder, with no or even opposite stick input. It also seems to oscillate back and forth weirdly at times. This is something I've basically never felt in the Mi-24, Mi-8 and Ka-50 helicopters.

The most noticeable example for me is when turning on the hover hold (i.e. very low speed attitude hold). My speed can be 0, my ball on the IHADSS centered (and yes I am aware that chasing the ball in IHADSS is usually bad, and I do get better results ignoring it entirely), but when I turn on the supposed hover hold mode, the helicopter starts accelerating in a random direction. You not only have to get the speed to be basically 0, and the acceleration to be basically 0, you also need to nail a specific attitude on the helicopter before turning the mode on will actually capture and hold the hover. It's very binary, either it captures the hover hold perfectly with no issues, or it doesn't get even remotely close to it. I can't remember if they announced a specific change to this aspect, but in the manual it still says that when your speeds is below 5 knots, the Attitude Hold switch is supposed to turn on the hover/position hold mode, but it absolutely can not even remotely achieve this currently if you're moving a more than like 1 knot. At least on my system. =/

Now I can do this after some practice, but comparing it to the 3 other helicopters with hover holds, all of them are SO much better at this. The Ka-50 just wants you to get to like below 10 km/h and with the trim set so that the autopilot has most of its channel authority left, and it'll capture and hold your hover very easily. Even if your trim wasn't perfect, and the autopilot runs out of authority, it'll still _try_ to maintain the hover as best it can, drifting to the side a tiny bit, which you can correct for by retrimming. The Apache in a similar situation will just yeet off to a random direction at high speeds, rather than try to get as close to a hover as it can. The Mi-24P isn't as good at capturing the hover, but it will try its best, and turn off the hold mode if it can't do it. The Gazelle (such as it is until the new update comes) is very touchy unless you severely drop down your saturations, but it's not very hard to get to a hover, and the hover hold grabs and holds it aggressively.

If the Apache could actually engage position hold that manages to grab the helicopter and keep it steady when engaged at between 2-5 knots, and if the controls were equally fast in unsprung stick trim mode as they are in center position trim mode, I'd have very little to complain about really, even with the current stability augmentation not really keeping it "stable" in the same manner as the Hind, Hip and Shark do.

Edited May 29, 2023 by jubuttib

[Amarok_73]

1 hour ago, jubuttib said:

If the Apache could actually engage position hold that manages to grab the helicopter and keep it steady when engaged at between 2-5 knots, and if the controls were equally fast in unsprung stick trim mode as they are in center position trim mode, I'd have very little to complain about really, even with the current stability augmentation not really keeping it "stable" in the same manner as the Hind, Hip and Shark do.

I couldn't agree more.

The Kamov hover hold is the unsurprassed example of how I'd like the hover hold in Apache work like.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Amarok_73

[Trigger]

Sounds to me like the wish list. My only question: How is the real thing behaving, and how close to it are we in our simulation? And one more: extended stick or not?

Besides that, I just expect - flying a helicopter - to be constantly busy with little inputs via pedals and cyclic. It is a whirly bird and no fixed wing flying machine.

I just like that bird.