A/A refueling for trainees

[captflyby]

Could you put an "easy mode" into dcs world for those of us that are trying to master A/A refueling.

 

 

[razo+r]

Refuelling assist has gone through a lot of discussions. Maybe it will come with the rework of the refueling system.

 

[captflyby]

I hope so.

I would be embarrassed to let you know how many years I have been trying to get it in and keep it there ... the basket.

[SharpeXB]

This has been discussed before and ED has stated they have no plans to do this. 

 

8 minutes ago, razo+r said:

Maybe it will come with the rework of the refueling system.

This will probably just make it harder

[Furiz]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:32 PM, razo+r said:

Maybe it will come with the rework of the refueling system.

Well they are planing to add boom and basket psychics so I guess it wont be easier. It is beneficial for users to adjust or tune pitch and roll axis so they can fly formation easy, and lots of practice and patience.

But in my opinion if you make some easy basket mode how can it help you master AAR? It will just keep you on that lvl and you wont ever turn that easy mode off. Cause as soon as you turn it off you'll see that you cant keep up with it cause you haven't ever tried it the normal way.

You can simulate easy mode AAR by not hooking up, and just flying under the tanker, keeping formation.

Then when you feel ready try to hook up.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Furiz

[Northstar98]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:39 PM, SharpeXB said:

This will probably just make it harder

In my (albeit limited) experience in a certain other sim, where drogues and booms have physics models, it actually makes it easier. Especially with the boom - you can almost 'feel' when it's made contact and the subtle resistance it provides (alongside other improvements like smarter AI pilots and boom operators).

[2circle]

So I'll just quickly add that I flew F-18s and F-14s in the Navy back in the early 2000's and have tanked off the S-3, F-18F, KC-130, KC-135, and KC-10 in day, night, marginal IMC, and turbulent air conditions, and IFR in DCS is substantially harder than doing this in the actual airplane.  The basket is much more forgiving in real life, and not having actual depth perception makes flying stable formation very tricky in DCS, even with VR (which is how I enjoy the game).  Moreover, there's no joystick in the world that accurately models a flight control stick with all of the feedback it provides the pilot. It took me (and most pilots) a total of about 3 attempts and 5 minutes to make my first successful plug, and after that it was a zero stress event for the rest of my career, even after long periods of not doing it.  Tanking was essentially treated as "down time" during a long mission when you could relax and let your mind wander as you came off of your CAP or were on your way back to the boat.  By comparison, I've already spent a couple of hours trying to in flight refuel the F-18 in DCS for a total of perhaps 5 seconds in the basket.  For those of us who perhaps don't have the ideal joystick or can't figure out the best curves/dead zone combination, I really recommend an "easy IFR" selection in the options menu, where we already have unlimited fuel available anyway.  I'd like to propose implementing a successful contact by the following criteria: probe extended, airspeed no more than 10 kts faster than the tanker, probe within 3 feet of the basket.  This would make up for the additional difficulty associated with what should be a zero stress administrative aspect of operating combat aircraft.  Just my 2 cents.

[GGTharos]

The reason it took you only a few tries and a few minutes has some, but little to do with what you described and mostly to do with the fact that you're a trained pilot, already have been trained to fly formation and so on and so forth.

Point the finger where it needs to be pointed, squarely at pilot formation flying skill.  There's no real mechanism in DCS to instruct people in how to fly an aircraft, something you had the benefit of receiving before you ever tanked.  Even if that mechanism existed I imagine a lot of people just wouldn't spend the time - it seems like most people link 'mastery' of an aircraft to operating the systems, not flying.

Tanking is pretty easy for me in any aircraft in DCS; but I've spent the time to learn how to fly formation.

Also, if your equipment sucks ... well, what can I say?  You have VR, get a better stick - why skimp on that now?

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

it seems like most people link 'mastery' of an aircraft to operating the systems, not flying.

People who claim to be unable to AAR still seem to have hundreds of hours in the game. They’ve just chosen to spend those hours learning other things. That doesn’t justify putting a crutch into the game aids. 

53 minutes ago, 2circle said:

and not having actual depth perception makes flying stable formation very tricky in DCS, even with VR (which is how I enjoy the game).  Moreover, there's no joystick in the world that accurately models a flight control stick with all of the feedback it provides the pilot.

That’s just the reality of a PC simulation. There’s no good fix for that. But again this doesn’t really justify more game aids. I’m sure plenty of game experts would have trouble flying the real thing. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Furiz]

1 hour ago, 2circle said:

So I'll just quickly add that I flew F-18s and F-14s in the Navy back in the early 2000's and have tanked off the S-3, F-18F, KC-130, KC-135, and KC-10 in day, night, marginal IMC, and turbulent air conditions

We can't know if you did that or not or you are just some guy having no patience to practice AAR and decided to make this kind of post saying "I flew fighter jets" just to make ED believe they need to make it easier.

So if you flew Hornet and Tomcat in the Navy, get in touch with ED and help out as SME on the Hornet and Tomcat, I'd love to have this sim as realistic as possible.

[2circle]

I'm sure ED gets tons of input from users all around the world - if I had a direct line to them, this would be very near the top of my list of issues to address (that and the corrupt trackfile problem, which is frankly inexcusable IMO).  I can't speak to all the aircraft, but the F-18 is remarkably accurate from a systems perspective.  Of course the developer had to make some assumptions regarding classified capabilities, but the unclass aspects are amazing.  I've had a few former Navy buddies try out the VR at my house and they're all blown away with it as well.  In any case, I'm using a X-56 Rhino, which gets pretty good reviews and seems to work fine in all other regimes of flight.  If nothing else, those users that are frustrated with the IFR should take heart that even a former strike fighter pilot who never had any issues tanking probably a hundred times finds this aspect to be substantially harder than real life.  We already have the option to select unlimited fuel, unlimited weapons, and invincibility, so what not make this another user selectable option for those that are maybe not quite that much a of a purist?

 

[FireHazard]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:21 AM, GGTharos said:

The reason it took you only a few tries and a few minutes has some, but little to do with what you described and mostly to do with the fact that you're a trained pilot, already have been trained to fly formation and so on and so forth.

Point the finger where it needs to be pointed, squarely at pilot formation flying skill.  There's no real mechanism in DCS to instruct people in how to fly an aircraft, something you had the benefit of receiving before you ever tanked.  Even if that mechanism existed I imagine a lot of people just wouldn't spend the time - it seems like most people link 'mastery' of an aircraft to operating the systems, not flying.

Tanking is pretty easy for me in any aircraft in DCS; but I've spent the time to learn how to fly formation.

Also, if your equipment sucks ... well, what can I say?  You have VR, get a better stick - why skimp on that now?

 

This is "part" of it....but many things are simply harder in a simulator VR or otherwise. Landing is more difficult due to the lack of sensations, depth perception, also peripheral vision plays a big part too. I'm an IRL ME/IR pilot fwiw. 

Yeah, sure they are a trained pilot...and do it with ease in real life...but then struggle in DCS.... that tells you all you need to know about the level of difficulty presented by tanking in DCS with the lack of physical queues and peripheral vision. If there is something that is hindering enjoyment of the sim for many that is *substantially* more difficult than it is in real life then I see no issue putting in an easier mode for those who want it. 

On 4/7/2023 at 3:18 AM, Furiz said:

We can't know if you did that or not or you are just some guy having no patience to practice AAR and decided to make this kind of post saying "I flew fighter jets" just to make ED believe they need to make it easier.

So if you flew Hornet and Tomcat in the Navy, get in touch with ED and help out as SME on the Hornet and Tomcat, I'd love to have this sim as realistic as possible.

Gotta love the 'gatekeeping' going on in our hobby right here.... 

[SharpeXB]

The problem with adding this aid, just like all the others, is that it will end up as a mission setting enforced in multiplayer. So you’re likely to see it switched off just like labels and unlimited fuel and ammo etc. These settings divide up the mp game so adding more of them isn’t a great idea. 

[Furiz]

6 hours ago, FireHazard said:

Gotta love the 'gatekeeping' going on in our hobby right here.... 

Gatekeeping?

Imagine they do this for him, they make the change, then some other guy steps in says he is navy pilot and its not like that and they need to change, so they change it again, then few months later some other "navy pilot" steps in and says ... you see where this is going?

AAR is not science fiction, it not something impossible to do, it requires practice, some need to practice more some need less practice but we all need to practice it. Thousands of pilots in real life did it (with access to AAR ofc), and thousands of sim pilots did too, so keep practicing.

And that aid would not help anyone really, cause people that ask for it would not stop using it, so essentially they are asking for aid to help them AAR that would never get turned off cause that aid wont help them get precision needed to AAR, cause obviously with the aid they don't need to be precise so they don't practice it properly, and as soon as they turn it off they would not be able to make it.

So in the end the aid you are asking for becomes a feature you'll be using on and on and this sim, by introducing such aids, bit by bit becomes more and more arcade game rather than simulator.

[Tank50us]

11 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with adding this aid, just like all the others, is that it will end up as a mission setting enforced in multiplayer. So you’re likely to see it switched off just like labels and unlimited fuel and ammo etc. These settings divide up the mp game so adding more of them isn’t a great idea. 

You are aware that some of the aids that've been suggested, particularly the ones I've suggested, aren't anywhere out of line with the aids we already have right? Case in point, the IFLOLS that pops up during carrier landings. Nowhere in the mission settings can you turn it off, but it is in the individual settings, and if a player chooses they can turn it off. Something like that could pop up when you're trying to tank in an Boom-refueler (like an F-15) that is just a representation of the alignment lights under the forward section of the KC-135/KC-10. A gamified version could be done up for the Drogue refuelers, and again, it could be made into an option that can be turned off by the player if they don't need it or want it.

Now, let me ask you this: If these aids are purely client side, and you see a player controlled aircraft approaching a tanker, will you be able to tell if the person is using the aids or no? You already can't tell if someone landing on a CVN-74 or CV-59 has the SCM or not. Heck, you can only tell they have it if they're obviously paying attention to the deck crew on the CVN-74. But landing? Nope.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

You are aware that some of the aids that've been suggested, particularly the ones I've suggested, aren't anywhere out of line with the aids we already have right? Case in point, the IFLOLS that pops up during carrier landings. Nowhere in the mission settings can you turn it off, but it is in the individual settings, and if a player chooses they can turn it off. Something like that could pop up when you're trying to tank in an Boom-refueler (like an F-15) that is just a representation of the alignment lights under the forward section of the KC-135/KC-10. A gamified version could be done up for the Drogue refuelers, and again, it could be made into an option that can be turned off by the player if they don't need it or want it.

Now, let me ask you this: If these aids are purely client side, and you see a player controlled aircraft approaching a tanker, will you be able to tell if the person is using the aids or no? You already can't tell if someone landing on a CVN-74 or CV-59 has the SCM or not. Heck, you can only tell they have it if they're obviously paying attention to the deck crew on the CVN-74. But landing? Nope.

The “aid” people seem to ask for on this topic is usually something like an automatic helper that flies the plane for you. Or your plane magically fills up when you get close to the tanker. That sort of aid would certainly need to be controllable in mp. 
The belly light graphic similar to the IFLOLS I think would be ok since you still have to fly the plane, it’s not helping you anymore than it would in reality. It’s just something that lets you see it on a small PC screen. 

[Salty Buckets]

TBH aerial refueling for drogue tankers is easier IRL than it is in DCS. Without proper cable physics, and the basket basically being unfazed by the laws of aerodynamics and wind, it's a cakewalk in DCS and honestly does a poor job of depicting and often confuses many people of how hard basket refueling is actually like in real life. IRL, you have to deal with the basket moving away from you when you get close, the possibility of the cable skip-roping and then proceeding to tear off from the basket, etc. I do agree partially that there could be a pop out window in DCS for refueling, but only an enlarged version of the lineup lights, nothing gamified to guide you in.

And all it takes is time and practice to get refueling down. There should be no need for a gamified version of A2A refueling, or anything else of its sort in DCS. 

This. Is. A. Simulator.

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, Salty Buckets said:

TBH aerial refueling for drogue tankers is easier IRL than it is in DCS.

Reading the rest of your post I think you meant to say the opposite here. Didn’t you mean DCS is easier than IRL?

Edited April 12, 2023 by SharpeXB

[bfr]

8 hours ago, Salty Buckets said:

TBH aerial refueling for drogue tankers is easier IRL than it is in DCS. Without proper cable physics, and the basket basically being unfazed by the laws of aerodynamics and wind, it's a cakewalk in DCS and honestly does a poor job of depicting and often confuses many people of how hard basket refueling is actually like in real life. IRL, you have to deal with the basket moving away from you when you get close, the possibility of the cable skip-roping and then proceeding to tear off from the basket, etc. I do agree partially that there could be a pop out window in DCS for refueling, but only an enlarged version of the lineup lights, nothing gamified to guide you in.

And all it takes is time and practice to get refueling down. There should be no need for a gamified version of A2A refueling, or anything else of its sort in DCS. 

This. Is. A. Simulator.

And plenty of other sim titles have various levels of aids that soften what can be a considerable learning curve (e.g. driving games with ideal line/braking indicators, gear change and traction/braking behaviour assists). If you want a slightly dumbed down experience in some areas for single player then you can have it. If you want a hardcore-only experience in multiplayer or campaigns you create then you can enforce what is/isn't available to users (as you already can in some areas of the game that could be considered as cheats, like highlighting enemy units, certain view and map modes etc).

[Exorcet]

9 hours ago, Salty Buckets said:

This. Is. A. Simulator.

ie the type of software that very commonly gives users options to tailor their experience. A refueling aid is completely in line with DCS. It can also be a greatstepping stone to increasing refueling competency among the playerbase as a whole as some users of the aid will go on to trying to refuel without it, as is the case with many other aids.

[SharpeXB]

53 minutes ago, bfr said:

And plenty of other sim titles have various levels of aids that soften what can be a considerable learning curve (e.g. driving games with ideal line/braking indicators, gear change and traction/braking behaviour assists). If you want a slightly dumbed down experience in some areas for single player then you can have it. If you want a hardcore-only experience in multiplayer or campaigns you create then you can enforce what is/isn't available to users (as you already can in some areas of the game that could be considered as cheats, like highlighting enemy units, certain view and map modes etc).

Yeah there could be some sort of graphic training aid but I have trouble imagining what that might be and I don’t see any consensus on it here either. I find myself thinking that it would just end up being a hinderance in this game rather that any help. It’s not a mystery where you’re supposed to put your plane, it’s right in front of you. It’s the doing it that takes practice. 

[Tank50us]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah there could be some sort of graphic training aid but I have trouble imagining what that might be and I don’t see any consensus on it here either. I find myself thinking that it would just end up being a hinderance in this game rather that any help. It’s not a mystery where you’re supposed to put your plane, it’s right in front of you. It’s the doing it that takes practice. 

That would probably depend on the aircraft trying to refuel. A boom refueler (like an F-15) for example, would get a pop-up on screen that represents the line-up lights under the nose of the refueling plane. For drogue refulers you could have a two-part pop-up. The first is a throttle that shows where your throttle *should* be to approach the reel, and then the basket. The Second is what I'd call a "line-up diamond" that gives you a visual indication of both where your plane needs to be, and what it's actually doing.

Both options could be turned on or off as needed, and eventually some people could operate without it, others may need it.

I am also all for some aids that make it easier for those who are trying to refuel but dealing with real world physical issues. This would be off by default ofc, but there are people out there who would probably enjoy DCS a lot... but aren't able to because of a serious disability. One guy I know of through a DCS FB page lost both his legs in an accident for example... how's he supposed to operate without rudders and differential breaking? Well, for the aircraft that rely on the latter, there's a special option check box that allows it to be bound to whatever you bind your rudder to. Ergo, he could fly anything that requires DB, without issue. Who's to say such measures can't be taken for those who suffer other debilitating issues that prevent them from performing tasks most of us find easy.

This would also be my biggest argument for more multi-seat aircraft, but that's something for another time.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

 A boom refueler (like an F-15) for example, would get a pop-up on screen that represents the line-up lights under the nose of the refueling plane. For drogue refulers you could have a two-part pop-up. The first is a throttle that shows where your throttle *should* be to approach the reel, and then the basket. The Second is what I'd call a "line-up diamond" that gives you a visual indication of both where your plane needs to be, and what it's actually doing.

Why have graphics on the screen for things you can already see? You can just see the belly lights on the tanker in the sim, there’s no need for extra ones. For the drogue you can again see this right in front of you where it is. I don’t see why there’s a need for extra graphics or that they’d be any help. 
You seem to have the wrong idea about the throttle input, there’s not a “correct” position for it. You simply need to control it based upon your speed which again there’s ample feedback for right on your screen.

[Tank50us]

36 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can just see the belly lights on the tanker in the sim, there’s no need for extra ones.

And you can just see the IFLOLS on the carrier when on approach, especially at night... but you have to have the right graphics settings and right sized monitor to really see it. Those with VR apparently can see it just fine, and of course in the real world they can easily see it. Of course, not everyone who has DCS is playing in VR, and most certainly not everyone is going to be running on the latest hardware.

The Drogue aid I talk about, at least the throttle part of it, can appear in the same place as the existing throttle indicator that people can already call up. It would just have an extra overlay that adjusts as needed. Again, these can be optional, turned on or off as people may need. If you don't want to use them, just turn them off. If someone else feels they need them, they can turn on the aids that they need. For some, it's throttle management, for others, it's keeping the aircraft steady and in position. Some have mastered it in only a couple tries, others are still struggling. Why not give those that need further help the help they need, and allow those that don't need any help at all to just turn the feature off.

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

And you can just see the IFLOLS on the carrier when on approach

But it’s very small and far away. The belly lights are right in front of you. I think the graphic would just end up being intrusive and not helpful. 

17 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

the throttle part of it, can appear in the same place as the existing throttle indicator that people can already call up

You can’t have your eyes glued to something down at the corner of your screen. You need to keep them on the pod. So that placement doesn’t work. Also with the graphic you’d be following an indicator and the eye-mind-hand response lag would put you out of phase. Your inputs need to be predictive, not responsive. So that idea won’t help. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by SharpeXB