GB6 and LS6 guided by PP points are always slightly off target

[Leon.S]

I just recently began using some AG weapons and I've noticed a few issues including the Type 200A bombs not working above 1000 feet but that's being covered in another thread. Today I tried out some GB6 and LS6 with the PP points to strike a runway, but I've noticed that they land about 10-20 meters off the point that I set on the f10 map. I've checked the INS alignment and I always use HNS+GPS for better accuracy. I've also tried setting an azimuth-guided launch but that didn't seem to help with the accuracy so I doubt it's got something to do with the wrong altitude or something of the point. I will attach some pictures below of the issue. I am wondering since it's just a bit off that maybe I'm doing something wrong or is this a common issue? I am currently running the latest beta in MT. Also, I've noticed that in the Chucks guide it says that the dotted lines of the acceptable release zone of the bomb should turn solid when the aircraft is in range but that also doesn't seem to happen no matter how close I fly into the area so I just launch within the zone and it seems to work just fine. Maybe that's also changed or bugged. I have been doing a lot of AA with the JF but not so much AG so I'm not too familiar with whether or not this issue was there a few updates ago or so, just what I am seeing now. This has happened now every time that I tried them with PP points at multiple different airports however when I lock with AG radar or use the targeting pod everything seems to work perfectly fine. 

 

The first image is of the actual detonation. The two little craters are with the LS6-250 with a direct path (no azimuth set) and the big one is with the GB6 with the Azimuth set to match the runway heading yet it still missed the point. 

 

The Second image is one of the points itself. 

 

Please let me know if you are having the same issue or if any suggestions as to what I might be doing wrong would be greatly appreciated. But until I figure out what I am doing wrong or the bug is fixed I guess ill just displace the point of the actual target by a bit to compensate. 

[razo+r]

What alignement did you do? Fast or GC? 

If you did a Fast one, try the GC and see if it makes a difference. 

[BigBorner]

Use GC Alignment instead of fast. After Master Arm on, and switching the LSs on, wait for them to align properly(!). Alignment countdown is usually shown in the lower section of the right MFD. 

[AeriaGloria]

No greater then 15m and 35m CEP. Pretty larger then I expected, Atleast what’s advertised in the brochure 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by AeriaGloria

[Leon.S]

I tried the GC alignment and it doesn't seem to make any difference. Could any of you try it just to make sure that it isnt some issue on my side? I dont know what i am doing wrong because it consistently seem to miss by the same amount so i dont think its a INS issue. I do align the bombs in flight which i think is what you should do but could that mess up the bombs alignment? I am using the Caucasus map and maybe that has a issue where the coordinates are a bit off.

[BigBorner]

I’ll check later today. 
 

@AeriaGloria

In DCS they were always PinPoint accurate if employed correctly. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by BigBorner

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, BigBorner said:

I’ll check later today. 
 

@AeriaGloria

In DCS they were always PinPoint accurate if employed correctly. 

 

Yes, I was somewhat tongue in cheek as PGM in DCS is modeled as perfect accuracy. I should have mentioned so. I will test it’s accuracy though 

[BigBorner]

I’ve checked yesterday on MT in single player. GB-6 HE was precise down to 1m or so. I’ve used GC Alignment and GPS Assist for INS. 

[Colmillo]

Hi

I noticed that it is indeed generating an error in the accuracy. Obviously I did full GC alignment.

I have only tried with the LS-6 250, before I never had this error, and now in PP and TOO the problem appears.
Like I said, I've only tested with the 250 and in MT (not ST).
In all tests I used
- Syria map
- Added points in ME
- Added points in the mission with Markpoints
- Points entered manually
- Multiplayer server
And in all tests there is no precision.

Thanks

[Colmillo]

I did another test in the same mission:

I put a plane in the air at 25,000' with the points already created in ME (PP1 to PP4), and in this way it is the only way to reach the target correctly.

[Colmillo]

I found the solution:

Once the engine start is done, (full GC alignment, loaded weapon and DTC updated) and before taxi;
Turn the master ON and select the AG mode to allow the alignment of the LS on the ground.
In this condition the precision is absolute.
It's funny because before it wasn't necessary to do this procedure.

I hope it helps someone else.

Cheers

Edited March 26, 2023 by Colmillo

[sthompson]

On 3/26/2023 at 4:56 PM, Colmillo said:

I found the solution:

Once the engine start is done, (full GC alignment, loaded weapon and DTC updated) and before taxi;
Turn the master ON and select the AG mode to allow the alignment of the LS on the ground.
In this condition the precision is absolute.
It's funny because before it wasn't necessary to do this procedure.

I hope it helps someone else.

Cheers

 

This does not work for me. The LS-6 persistently overshoots the target. The only thing that works for me is to start the mission hot (either on the ground or in the air) so that the weapon is already aligned at mission start. Very frustrating.

Furthermore, I can't make a track to demonstrate the problem since you now need to remove the Inlet covers before starting the engine. That requires interacting with the Ground Crew / Configuration Panel. But it does not appear that clicks on the Configuration Panel are recorded in track files and so the engine dies in the track playback.

[uboats]

5 minutes ago, sthompson said:

This does not work for me. The LS-6 persistently overshoots the target. The only thing that works for me is to start the mission hot (either on the ground or in the air) so that the weapon is already aligned at mission start. Very frustrating.

Furthermore, I can't make a track to demonstrate the problem since you now need to remove the Inlet covers before starting the engine. That requires interacting with the Ground Crew / Configuration Panel. But it does not appear that clicks on the Configuration Panel are recorded in track files and so the engine dies in the track playback.

what about this? hot ground aircraft, but mount ls-6 from ground crew after taking control of aircraft, and then try?

also you can record a full video

[sthompson]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:23 PM, uboats said:

what about this? hot ground aircraft, but mount ls-6 from ground crew after taking control of aircraft, and then try?

also you can record a full video

Hot ground aircraft with no weapons at start. Ground crew added the LS-6 bombs and updated DTC. Reloaded DTC and flew mission. Bombs delivered on target! I will try to post a video showing the problem when I start cold with bombs already loaded soon.

[sthompson]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:20 PM, sthompson said:

Hot ground aircraft with no weapons at start. Ground crew added the LS-6 bombs and updated DTC. Reloaded DTC and flew mission. Bombs delivered on target! I will try to post a video showing the problem when I start cold with bombs already loaded soon.

And here is a video showing that bombs miss when the mission is started from a cold and dark jet.

https://youtu.be/7l8hCLtlDOY

[razo+r]

2 hours ago, sthompson said:

And here is a video showing that bombs miss when the mission is started from a cold and dark jet.

https://youtu.be/7l8hCLtlDOY

And what happens if you do the FAST alignement but with INS+GPS?

Or what happens if you do the GC alignement?

Edited April 15, 2023 by razo+r

[sthompson]

5 hours ago, razo+r said:

And what happens if you do the FAST alignement but with INS+GPS?

Or what happens if you do the GC alignement?

 

I've tried pretty much all possible combinations for doing the jet alignment and HNS settings. None seem to make any difference in results in my test mission. The bombs always miss if I start with a cold jet and always hit if I start with a hot jet. 

[Colmillo]

2 hours ago, sthompson said:

I've tried pretty much all possible combinations for doing the jet alignment and HNS settings. None seem to make any difference in results in my test mission. The bombs always miss if I start with a cold jet and always hit if I start with a hot jet. 

Try this:

 

 

On 3/26/2023 at 5:56 PM, Colmillo said:

I found the solution:

Once the engine start is done, (full GC alignment, loaded weapon and DTC updated) and before taxi;
Turn the master ON and select the AG mode to allow the alignment of the LS on the ground.
In this condition the precision is absolute.
It's funny because before it wasn't necessary to do this procedure.

I hope it helps someone else.

Cheers

 

 

[Lynnux]

I once wrote a bug report because of inaccurate glide bombs. Turned out that I didn't give the bombs enough time to align. Beware that bomb alignment has nothing to do with INS aligment of the plane and starts with master weapon switched on.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Lynnux

[sthompson]

21 hours ago, Colmillo said:

Try this:

That's the first thing I tried. Didn't work. To be clear, if I cold start the plane with bombs already loaded, start the plane, then do a full alignment (either FAST or entering coordinates from the kneeboard), then set HNS to INS+GPS, then power up the bombs and do a full alignment until the timer reaches zero, and only then start to taxi, I get the same results as in the video I posted. However, if I start with the plane hot but unarmed, then ask ground crew to add the bombs, then ask them to update the DTC, then reload the DTC, then go through the entire alignment process for the jet again, then taxi, takeoff, and do the bomb alignment in the air, then the bombs hit their target. They also hit their target if I start up with the plane hot and bombs already loaded (e.g. hot from runway), or in the air, then no further alignment is needed and the bombs are accurate.

EDIT: I realized after writing this that what I described is not the GC alignment. I was unfamiliar with GC alignment because it does not appear in Chuck's Guide, and I had not seen it on any of the tutorial videos I watched. I since found some information about it and tried it out. It does appear that the bombs hit accurately if I use GC alignment and then align the bombs themselves before taxi.

18 hours ago, Lynnux said:

I once wrote a bug report because of inaccurate glide bombs. Turned out that I didn't give the bombs enough time to align. Beware that bomb alignment has nothing to do with INS aligment of the plane and starts with master weapon switched on.

I'm aware of that. But if you watch the video you will see that the alignment countdown timer for the bomb alignment is zero well before I release the weapons.

Edited April 16, 2023 by sthompson
added info about GC alignment

[Napillo]

One thing I do is don't set INS+GPS until the bombs are loaded on the plane, and the DTC has been loaded (sms page shows the bombs). It needs to know that the bomb is connected before it's going to give them GPS data, right? So that's what I do. It might be fine, but I try to play it that way. 

[BigBorner]

Am 24.4.2023 um 20:29 schrieb Napillo:

One thing I do is don't set INS+GPS until the bombs are loaded on the plane, and the DTC has been loaded (sms page shows the bombs). It needs to know that the bomb is connected before it's going to give them GPS data, right? So that's what I do. It might be fine, but I try to play it that way. 

But, you’re giving the bomb GPS etc. once you switch master arm on and select them in sms. That INS+GPS is for the Jeff’s navigation system and should be turned on as soon as possible. 

[Schmidtfire]

IRL info, not stats from DCS:

LS-6 CEP <15m
GB-6 CEP <36m

LS-6 bomb landing up to 15m off target is still within specs.

In comparison:

JDAM CEP <5m
JSOW CEP <3m

Not 100% verified info. But seems reasonable.

 

 

 

Edited March 5 by Schmidtfire

[uboats]

The cep is simply simulated for jsow and jdam based on align accuracy.

[jubuttib]

FWIW, I tested blufor vs. redfor accuracy with otherwise identical Jeffs, and these were the results (posting from another thread):

4xLS-6 250 + 2xLS-6 500 per plane, so six bombs per plane. All 6 from blufor hit inside the blue ring, redfor hits landed around the area. Both were aiming at the same ME assigned PP.

Did the test multiple times, all results were similar, some times blufor even just made two overlapping craters. Huge difference in blufor vs. redfor accuracy.