correct as is F16 Still Underperforming

[Sandman1330]

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

No, one long (5sec) 12.5g pull in the most g-vulnerable speed band for the eagle resulted in what you said.  The rest did not, at least it's not documented.  I'm not saying the crew chief didn't have to do extra work, just that the alleged severity of your comment does not appear to apply.

Pull 12g for a while in the eagle in DCS and it breaks.  Yes, it is cumulative in DCS.  Add weight or make the g asymmetric and it breaks sooner.  Pull 10g and it will take you a lot longer to break it because it's not 12g.

 

I disagree that the over G damage is cumulative in DCS, I’ve seen no evidence that it is without some kind of other external battle damage. I would love to see what a real F15 would look like after a typical DCS dogfight. It would probably make it back home, but it certainly wouldn’t fly right. 

I’m no proponent of an unrealistic wing break mechanic either. Other things break first - panels pop and increase or create asymmetric drag, engine mounts break, non-solid state avionics, radars, control surfaces, etc. More severely the rigging and trim is going to be thrown out by even very minor bending or twisting, which will make it fly crooked and play hell with the FLCS (if equipped). The only module that models this level of granular detail is the Tomcat (and still fairly rudimentary)

Its not just about breaking the wings, it’s the other loss of capability that’s going to factor into the fight.

People love to boast about how realistic DCS is, until it becomes inconvenient to their play style, at which time they simply try to justify it away.

Anyway I’ve said my piece and I don’t want to drag this off topic any longer. But on topic, perhaps one of the reasons the 16 struggles is it’s the only module that doesn’t have some kind of unrealistic exploit that can be leveraged. No paddle, FLCS breakers, flaps or ability to Over G. Might be why I prefer it, despite everything - it feels like the purest, cleanest flight model. If you get beat in a viper v viper fight, you know it’s because the other guy was better than you, not because he gamified the edge cases of the flight model.

[Cab]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

The you probably don't want to compare aircraft performance for all-clean, no-pylon dogfights on the deck, either.  Or really, any kind of modern aircraft gunzo fight.

I confess I have no idea what that has to do with my post that you reference.  However, it does seem to me that you believe modern jets routinely maneuvering at 12g is just normal aircraft performance. 

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Cab said:

I confess I have no idea what that has to do with my post that you reference.  However, it does seem to me that you believe modern jets routinely maneuvering at 12g is just normal aircraft performance. 

Fair enough, here's the context:  This is a discussion about F-16's performing poorly in unrealistic dogfight scenarios - no pylons, some kind of set fuel load, pretty much always merging on the deck and of course, guns only.  Complaining about someone spiking their aircraft to 12g because they can and the aircraft can isn't exactly a solid argument here - I would argue that the 12g spike isn't a winning condition/game plan/whatever.

 

[darkman222]

16 hours ago, gortex said:

They are both gamified to the extreme when that becomes normal gameplay.

I've said several times that the F-16 FLCS might not behave correctly

I dont know what you guys want to prove here. Watch the videos about folds of honor where there was G limits introduced and monitored. It was done for the fly by wire aircraft too. Because you can catch the G limiter off guard. More in the F18 than the F16. As the F18 relies more on instantaneous turning. It is not unrealistic or gamified. In the F16 you can even trick the G limiter by simply doing a loaded barrel roll. Which is realistic, because the F16 FLCS is only good at monitoring on axis the same time. But in all cases the G limiter ( both F16 and F18) catches back on and does its job as intended.

And that kind of over G ing in the F16 is treated as every other aircraft over G ing with an extra in depth inspection and being grounded in first place.

Of course there might be still a lot of FLCS behavior wrong in the F16 but in that special case i believe not.

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by darkman222

[Temetre]

Btw, things that people seem to forget constantly:

1. Both Viper and Hornet damage model are highly incomplete. The current level of G-damage isnt necessarily representative of anything.

2. Our Hornet has an improved engine. Its not the one used in the USN, so all IRL experience cant be directly applied. Idk if anyone even knows whats the difference in performance.

3. F-15C is a simplified module, and therefor cant be used as an "exact" comparision. Its flight model is 'good enough' for what it is. The damage model on FC3 planes is pretty weird (and sometimes buggy) too.   

vor 21 Minuten schrieb darkman222:

We should put our main focus on energery retention and G LOC modelling, is what I am saying. 

^If theres some issue, it seem like that would be it.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Temetre

[GGTharos]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:18 AM, gortex said:

In the DCS Viper you can spike to 13g or more in a loaded roll.

This is a DCS thing, not a DCS Viper thing.  

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

this thread has gone off topic from the title so will close. 

As the tag on the thread suggest this is correct as is and we are planning a white paper to demonstrate why this is so. 

thank you

[Gungho]

I was voicing my opinion that the f16 was underperforming in 2023 and the moderators closed my thread and moved it to "wish list, and correct as is." This is very unprofessional from the team and I hope they foster more free speech instead of punishing it. I eventually gave up pushing the fact the plane was underperforming due to negative feedback. 

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/323031-f16-still-underperforming/page/12/#comment-5240637

 

[DummyCatz]

Funnily enough, I posted my methodology of testing the SEP in that thread, which eventually resulted in the bug report that contributed to the progress of fixing this thing.