investigating A-G radar EXP3 scanning is broken and unusable (MT)

[Rissala]

When scanning a target with EXP3 in the Hornet there are multiple issues with generating the EXP3 SAR map. The scan stops entirely at certain angles and is generally unreliable. The FRZ option does not freeze the frame as the map is glitching on its own.

Videos & track below. 

 

 

 

 

AG radar issues.trk

[CallsignFrosty]

Came here to report this too.  Amazingly  it's been like this since release.

There is no way to designate using the A/G radar as it isn't actually producing a 'map' it's still a 'real time' reference, you get a different designation point than the one you click on the radar image.

I'm also pretty certain that EXP3 is just a zoomed in view of EXP2 - it should be SAR mode but there isn't any additional processing going on.

[dorianR666]

On 4/9/2023 at 6:52 PM, Rissala said:

The scan stops entirely at certain angles and is generally unreliable.

i can confirm that rolling the aircraft during scanning messes up all EXP modes.

 

  

8 hours ago, CallsignFrosty said:

Amazingly  it's been like this since release.

what amazes me the most is that AG radar still doesnt have gimbal limits modeled. you can fly straight up and your radar screen will still be able to map the ground below you, as if seeing 170 degrees below the nose.

Edited April 11, 2023 by dorianR666

[LastRifleRound]

yup. Had to jump through all the "not that accurate" "wasn't really used" and "correct as is" hoops to get this reported years ago and it hasn't been touched since. Here's the bug report, there were several but this one was the one marked "investigating", started by the OP here, which itself contains reference to another confirmed bug report from Dec 2020. 

 

 

[Rissala]

On 4/12/2023 at 5:53 AM, LastRifleRound said:

yup. Had to jump through all the "not that accurate" "wasn't really used" and "correct as is" hoops to get this reported years ago and it hasn't been touched since. Here's the bug report, there were several but this one was the one marked "investigating", started by the OP here, which itself contains reference to another confirmed bug report from Dec 2020. 

 

 

Yeah, had to shine some new light on this old issue. The reason I created a new thread is that, as you stated, there were many incorrect conclusions made by different people in that other thread which caused it to become cluttered. This one is straight forward, focuses on one issue within the A-G radar, and is easy to replicate.

We are soon going to have 2 modules (F15E and F16) that both get a functional and working implementation of A-G radar while the Hornet system has remained broken for years.

So I politely ask anyone at ED: Are you able to reproduce the issue or not? It is time to take a few steps forward on this bug beginning with acknowledgement.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Rissala

[Temetre]

More in a general sense, is the F-18 radar just broken in general? Ive heard that IRL its so precise that you sometimes can make out vehicle/aircraft type, but in the game its resolution is attrocious, especially past 5-10 miles everything is a blurry mess. The EXP modes (not just 3) mostly seem to expand the blur, rather than increase detection.

Kinda got used to just never using the AG-radar, because it seems just kinda useless in DCS.

 

To then go and try the F-16 ground radar is night and day. Way more detail and less bluriness, even at higher range, and the EXP mode improves image quite a bit. Its certainly not flawless, but its actually usable and sometimes even useful.

 

edit: Reading up a bit, people have been talking about how IRL in Gulf War they used the radar to look for ground targets (not just GMT). Thats something you cant even do in an F-16 in DCS, and the 18 is way worse. I mean, its not like the 16 can really identify ground targets either.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Temetre

[Canada_Moose]

I was watching Wags video on EXP modes and for EXP3 he gets a very detailed map in this mode at 19,000 feet and 16 miles out. I cannot for the life of me get this to work the same way. Is it broken?

[Lord Vader]

Hello @Canada_Moose

We would need to observe the conditions you're setting. Can you share a short track of what you are doing and observing?

Thanks

[Canada_Moose]

I can ad

6 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hello @Canada_Moose

We would need to observe the conditions you're setting. Can you share a short track of what you are doing and observing?

Thanks

I can add a track file but I am seeing the same behaviour as described above by @Temetre

It never resolves to an image that looks like the one in Wags tutorial video (where he can actually designate an individual element on the airfield)

Edited October 10, 2024 by Canada_Moose

[BIGNEWY]

Hi
We investigated this, and while the radar is in a non-EXP mode it can have a total azimuth of 120-degrees, it is limited to 90-degrees in an EXP. In the examples given in this topic, the gimbal limits were exceeded. You should never be at or over 45-degrees when in an EXP.

Pilot course is 005, TGT is at 054 at this point. 

thank you 

[Phantom711]

@BIGNEWY

But this would still be within the physical gimbal limits of the radar. Wouldn‘t it make sense that the radar adjusts its scan pattern to the right if the selected target is there? 
I mean it took a while until ED implemented A/A radar slewing to the left and right…maybe this feature should also exist in A/G…? I really don‘t know and hence don‘t have any publicly available evidence.

[Lord Vader]

8 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

But this would still be within the physical gimbal limits of the radar. 

In normal scan modes, yes, but like @BIGNEWY said, according to the source references for this radar/airframe, DBS mode is available in all scan volumes, except 120º. It's an actual limitation from the real aircraft and it's correctly depicted in our simulation. 

[Phantom711]

Am 11.10.2024 um 09:57 schrieb Lord Vader:

DBS mode is available in all scan volumes, except 120º.

The keyword is „scan volume“ here!

I do not question the fact, that EXP3 requires the scan volume to be limited to 90deg. This has probably to do with providing a higher update rate. 
What I do question is if or why the radar is not „willing“ to slew those 90deg of scan volume all the way to the left or right. In the above case, scanning from 70deg right to 20deg left would still be the 90deg of azimuth scan that you are referring to. 
 

I don‘t have anything to prove my case, I am just deducting that from how the radar behaves in A/A (i.e. TWS AUTO). It simply doesn‘t appear plausible to me, that the azimuth scan in A/G needs to stay centered around the nose.

[Lord Vader]

On 10/12/2024 at 9:26 AM, Phantom711 said:

The keyword is „scan volume“ here!

I do not question the fact, that EXP3 requires the scan volume to be limited to 90deg. This has probably to do with providing a higher update rate. 
What I do question is if or why the radar is not „willing“ to slew those 90deg of scan volume all the way to the left or right. In the above case, scanning from 70deg right to 20deg left would still be the 90deg of azimuth scan that you are referring to. 

I'm afraid this is one of those cases where the oddity is in the design itself and we're "guilty" of making it accurate. 

[Phantom711]

@Lord Vader

Thanks for taking the time to answer. As I said, I don‘t claim that it is definitely(!) wrong. I just felt it might have been overlooked or misinterpreted. But if that‘s what you research came up with, I believe you.

[Rissala]

Okay this +-45 degree limit in EXP3 is something which I have not heard about until this thread. If it is based on a real life limitation, then it should of course be in the game. The reason we have discussed this topic for multiple years is because none of the manuals, videos or devs have stated this limitation is in the game. The reason why everyone wants to use as much off axis angle as possible is to avoid overflying hostile territory as well as the effects of doppler shift.

Even the Hornet manual uses a 51 degree off axis scan in EXP3 as an example.

In my view this is a critical limitation in the A-G radar that is not communicated to the player in any way. Not in the manuals nor the A/C itself.
(unsure if the aircraft even would allow to exceed these angle limits if it really is a real life limitation but I have no evidence for that)

But now I know

On 10/10/2024 at 9:44 PM, BIGNEWY said:

You should never be at or over 45-degrees when in an EXP.

This should be communicated to the players in some way .

Edited November 2, 2024 by Rissala

[norman99]

On 10/11/2024 at 2:44 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi
We investigated this, and while the radar is in a non-EXP mode it can have a total azimuth of 120-degrees, it is limited to 90-degrees in an EXP. In the examples given in this topic, the gimbal limits were exceeded. You should never be at or over 45-degrees when in an EXP.

Pilot course is 005, TGT is at 054 at this point. 

thank you 

Are you 100% sure? The manuals I have specifically state the following for EXP1, EXP2 & EXP3:

“Display blanking because of antenna gimbal limits begins to appear when the angle-off-track indication approaches 60°.”

Can you please have a second look at this, as an additional 15° is not insignificant.

[Hobel]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb norman99:

Are you 100% sure? The manuals I have specifically state the following for EXP1, EXP2 & EXP3:

“Display blanking because of antenna gimbal limits begins to appear when the angle-off-track indication approaches 60°.”

Can you please have a second look at this, as an additional 15° is not insignificant.

What is the exact problem that you can't scan over 45° in EXP 3? I don't know if I'm doing it wrong or if there was some kind of fix but I can use the complete scanning area.

Am 2.11.2024 um 16:14 schrieb Rissala:

Even the Hornet manual uses a 51 degree off axis scan in EXP3 as an example.

yeah and here 48° lol

Edited December 8, 2024 by Hobel

[norman99]

Aircraft rotation, specifically bank, but possibly also in pitch, has always had a significant impact on the AG radar, and its ability to scan correctly. My understanding is that this shouldn’t be the case.

”The radar display is INS stabilized in both pitch and roll. If the aircraft climbs or dives, the antenna azimuth scan is automatically lowered or raised to maintain the same elevation angle with respect to the local horizontal plane. Similarly, when the aircraft is rolled into a bank, the antenna rotates in the opposite direction to maintain a level azimuth scan.”

Edited December 9, 2024 by norman99

[Lord Vader]

Hi all

The DCS: F/A-18C manual will be updated in the near future (along with other manuals needing updating). So currently some items may not show the current module status.

Again, the data contained in the source documentation corroborates the current module behaviour.