reported G Onset and G Visual Effects

[85th_Maverick]

Whenever you fly any other fighter jet with or without FBW flight controls logic, the flight controls response is as expected. The one of the F-16 isn't so expected and it's always laggy. From the moment you apply a full aileron, rudder, pitch input to the moment the flight control surface actually starts to move there's a delay unseen in any other jet. Despite another strange phenomena of AoA reduction only when applying pure left stick (no pitch input) only (right stick doesn't do it as the left stick input) which is more pronounced with heavier loadout and I have already reported about, the laggy flight controls system create a particular difficulty in flying the aircraft both in formation or when trying to precisely maneuver it. Nobody can have precise the controls over a vehicle with laggy controls responses compared to one which responds almost instantaneously. I doubt that the Thunderbirds would be able to fly so precisely together if flying with the lagg that we get in the DCS F-16 flight controls system.

Anyone can check this without recording track for evidence. It's a direct play evidence by comparing the F-16 to the F-18 or F-14 or even Su-27 in DCS.

[Tholozor]

Does it feel the same regardless of the position of the STORES CONFIG switch?

[BIGNEWY]

Not seeing any issue here. 

[VarZat]

Hey, try expirimenting with a negative curve on your pitch and roll axis.

[DummyCatz]

I cannot think of a more laggy system other than a Su-27, which deploys a lag filter to the stick command that has a very low filter rate (=high time constant).

[Razor18]

Just wondering if this lag has anything to do for instance with the TGP zoom lag. If you bind it to a button or keypress, and you press that button, the zoom starts to move definitely with a 0.3 - 0.4 sec dely, and the zoom stops also with delay, when you release the zoom button. Sorry if OFF...

[85th_Maverick]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Tholozor said:

Does it feel the same regardless of the position of the STORES CONFIG switch?

Yes, regardless. with clean wings and the plane has laggy stick responses. Maybe the rudder might be ok in it's response delay as it is, but the F-14 doesn't have this kind of laggy aileron and elevators deflections, the F-18 doesn't have it, the M-2000 doesn't have it. No other FC3 fighter jet has it. This is one of the reasons why I find flying the F-16 accurately in inputs or in formation flying more difficult than with any other jet which has quick and precise responses.

 

On 1/6/2023 at 11:36 AM, DummyCatz said:

I cannot think of a more laggy system other than a Su-27, which deploys a lag filter to the stick command that has a very low filter rate (=high time constant).

Not in roll and yaw, only in pitch for the Su-27! And speaking of witch, why does the Su-33 have a quick elevators response in contrast to the low elevators rate of the Su-27 if you happen to have in depth knowledge about the differences (why would there be any) between the Su-27's FCS and the Su-33's FCS?

On 1/6/2023 at 4:41 PM, Razor18 said:

Just wondering if this lag has anything to do for instance with the TGP zoom lag. If you bind it to a button or keypress, and you press that button, the zoom starts to move definitely with a 0.3 - 0.4 sec dely, and the zoom stops also with delay, when you release the zoom button. Sorry if OFF...

We were talking about the flight controls system lagg, nothing to do with game FPS or TGP influence (there is none from that anyway).

 

On 1/6/2023 at 9:38 AM, VarZat said:

Hey, try expirimenting with a negative curve on your pitch and roll axis.

The response delay from the stick inputs has nothing to do with the input curves. Linear or non-linear sensitivity settings, you get the same inputs lagg. Either the stick and the FCS receives the inputs with lagg or it outputs them with lagg, idk, I just see this difference between the F-16 and all other jets and no it's not me.

 

On 1/6/2023 at 9:12 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Not seeing any issue here. 

Have you tried comparing the time it takes from the moment you apply aileron input from your physical stick to the time the ailerons or roll control surfaces actually start to deflect? Try comparing the F-16 and the F-18, F-14, etc and see the difference. Don't even wanna talk about the F-15 which not only that it has the quickest response ever (arcade mode FCS if you'd ask anyone) from input apply to surface deflection, but wow, just look at those surfaces deflecting from a full position to the full opposite in merely 0.0000001 seconds (but yes, the FC3 F-15 is a different kind of story).;)

[Vortex225]

This could be your HOTAS. With my previous sticks (Virpil WarBRD and VKB Gunfighter Mk 3), the Viper felt laggy and weird compared to the Hornet. I recently upgraded to a Realsimulator FSSB R3L, and now the Viper feels amazing and extremely responsive with force sensing. Ironically, now the Hornet feels mushy and laggy for me by comparison. 

I agree with BN; I think it's fine as it is now.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Vortex225

[nighteyes2017]

We are simulating an F16. So why aren't we simulating the pilot?

Real F16 pilots need to be able to maintain a 15 second 9g turn in the centrifuge without help of the G-suit. So why does the DCS virtual pilot start blacking out after a few second of 8g? (while wearing a virtual g suit)

Dont tell me its sudden onset of G's. In the centrifuge it goes from 1 to 9 in less than a second.

 

[SickSidewinder9]

This guy is asking the important questions.

[darkman222]

Agreed. The DCS F16 flight model might be declared as correct-as-is a hundred times more if the pilot thats sitting in it is not qualified to fly it, he becomes the limiting factor not the flight model.

If the DCS F16 is about to be pushed out of early access this really needs to be looked at.

[SickSidewinder9]

Someone mentioned the Hornet pilot handles G's better, and um, I did a Maverick.  Juuuuuust started to black out.  Nothing before pulling the paddle switch.  Not even tunnel vision when sustaining 7+.  It's funny because the Viper is the one that is supposed to allow higher G tolerance with the reclined seat.

Again, just asking for a little consistency here!
EDIT: also, had to do that vs a MiG-21 in a BFM gunfight.  Yeah.

nullMaybe I should start posting in the Hornet bugs forum, because look what I pulled keeping from hitting the ground and the screen barely faded.

Edited April 18, 2023 by SickSidewinder9

[darkman222]

I think the only difference DCS makes for fighter jets is if the pilot has a G suit or not. So the F86 pilot just goes boom and blackout, whitout g suit, but the modelling for the F16, F18, F14 etc should be the same as their pilots have G suits.

Whats also simulated is a g warmup. There are techniques but the easiest is to do some barrel rolls with more than 7 G. If you dont do it, you also go black out quickly.

And the paddle pulling F18 is also not relevant here. Because there are no EM diagrams for the paddle pulled state as far as I know. And its not a common practice to do so. If people need the paddle its for compensating the lack of BFM skills. The F18 paddle is not being used in a dogfighting reality.

But the F16 is built around and for the 9G limit, thats why its called a true 9 G fighter. And it makes no sense that the virtual pilot cant handle 9Gs long enough for the F16 to be in the regime where its built to perform. Sure the flight model is correct. But with a pilot who is unqualified for this jet it is pointless.

Edited April 18, 2023 by darkman222

[Tom P]

Overall G force effects in DCS is pretty trash. Dudes start G straining at 3g, and start blacking out before you can use the planes full potential. And it can be pretty irregular too, most of the times after a merge you can instantly blackout even when you're not pulling as much. I fly the m2k primarily and this is my biggest complaint. 

[darkman222]

1 hour ago, 162nd Pete said:

And it can be pretty irregular too,

Not necessarily. When you spawned in you did not have a G warmup. If you do , the behavior is the same all the time.

But still, you wont be able to use the full potential of a modern fighter. The pilot blacks out after a few seconds even loses vision at 7.5 G sometimes.

[BIGNEWY]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:31 PM, nighteyes2017 said:

We are simulating an F16. So why aren't we simulating the pilot?

Real F16 pilots need to be able to maintain a 15 second 9g turn in the centrifuge without help of the G-suit. So why does the DCS virtual pilot start blacking out after a few second of 8g? (while wearing a virtual g suit)

Dont tell me its sudden onset of G's. In the centrifuge it goes from 1 to 9 in less than a second.

 

We have a improvement request for adjustments to pilot G regarding the reclined seat position. I have no news or timelines to share currently. 

On 4/18/2023 at 7:40 PM, SickSidewinder9 said:

Maybe I should start posting in the Hornet bugs forum, because look what I pulled keeping from hitting the ground and the screen barely faded.

if you think there is a bug please post short track replay example in the appropriate forum section and we will take a look. 
 

9 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

When you spawned in you did not have a G warmup

As mentioned by darkman222 G warm up is important when testing. If you go straight to pulling G's you are doing it wrong. 

thank you

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, 162nd Pete said:

Overall G force effects in DCS is pretty trash. Dudes start G straining at 3g,

4g (go ahead, have fun IRL without straining at 4 g) , and it is also where you should start the warm-up in DCS.   Do 2 180s at 4.1 to 5 g, you're warmed up.

1 hour ago, 162nd Pete said:

and start blacking out before you can use the planes full potential.

This is why air forces are starting to build unmanned aircraft.   Already aircraft capabilities have exceeded pilot capabilities.  The Raptor and Typhoon have brough this to higher altitude as well now, and thus this is the sunset for the manned fighter.

Edited April 20, 2023 by GGTharos

[darkman222]

27 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

We have a improvement request for adjustments to pilot G regarding the reclined seat position. I have no news or timelines to share currently. 

Thanks for letting us know that this is on the list for future updates.

I would not expect the seat position to play such a big role as it also needed due to the small cockpit measurements of the F16. (Little selling trick by General Dynamics here) I would rather expect that the DCS pilot will be adjusted to meet the real world requirements for a qualified F16 pilot. With that real F16 techniques will become possible in DCS. Like rating at the best sustained rate and pull the bandit in HUD, which is difficult at the moment because the DCS pilot blacks out in the final pull.
 

Edited April 20, 2023 by darkman222

[Tom P]

You have to do a G warm up in DCS?? Do you have to do a G warm up for air starts if you're doing dogfight tournaments?

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

4g (go ahead, have fun IRL without straining at 4 g) , and it is also where you should start the warm-up in DCS.   Do 2 180s at 4.1 to 5 g, you're warmed up.

 

 

[darkman222]

When you spawn, your pilot is not g warmed up. Thats why he blacks out instantly. Like I said. There are procedures. But you only have to be at a G higher than 4 or 5 G. So a couple of barrel rolls do the trick and you dont deviate too much from the course to the bandit if youre in a tournament or dogfight server.

[NineLine]

This is reported internally, thanks. 

[GGTharos]

9 hours ago, 162nd Pete said:

You have to do a G warm up in DCS?? Do you have to do a G warm up for air starts if you're doing dogfight tournaments?

 

Yes, you have to do a g-warmup.  If your dogfight tournament begins below 20000' it really matters (you're not going to hold on to a whole lot of g at 20000' altitude)

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

Yes, you have to do a g-warmup.  If your dogfight tournament begins below 20000' it really matters (you're not going to hold on to a whole lot of g at 20000' altitude)

Or... may be, just may be DCS is simulating a warmup in the O'club a night before and a big pot of coffee in the morning?

[GGTharos]

You would probably have trouble reaching 7gs, never mind complaints about 9.

[SickSidewinder9]

On 4/20/2023 at 9:04 PM, oldcrusty said:

Or... may be, just may be DCS is simulating a warmup in the O'club a night before and a big pot of coffee in the morning?

It's 8 hours from bottle to throttle!

 

 

or is 12?