AAR done by AI pilot - while player is WSO

[sirrah]

Wait! Don't shoot me right away! Asking this for a friend! 

Well actually, I'm really not posting this idea for myself, as I love doing AAR myself, but please hear me out:

 

There have been (and still are) many discussions about "easy AAR" requests on this forum. Apparently, many of our community members are struggling with this and are sad to not being able to witness what it's like or in some cases can't fly certain missions (without using unlimited fuel cheats). So, while being frustratingly hyped by the Mudhen , I was thinking, wouldn't the F-15E be a perfect module to (as a DCS first) include the option to switch to the WSO seat and order the pilot to refuel. Of course with no tankers nearby/available, this would be answered with a "can't comply" kinda response from the AI pilot.

Not sure how complicated it would be to implement such a feature (AI can already do AAR, so I imagine this should be possible), but I'm sure it will make many of our community members very happy. Plus, it would be (another) unique selling point for Razbam, as no other module within DCS has this feature yet.

What do you think?

 

(please don't turn this wish into another discussion about whether people should just practice more)

[Iron Sights]

Something like that might be possible, but I don’t how much interest there would be in an option like this. I know it’s not going to be something you would see for a while after release, if at all. By that time you may have just gotten good at doing it yourself.

[sirrah]

34 minutes ago, Iron Sights said:

Something like that might be possible, but I don’t how much interest there would be in an option like this. I know it’s not going to be something you would see for a while after release, if at all. By that time you may have just gotten good at doing it yourself.

For sure I agree, it doesn't have to be "release date" priority, but considering how many topics were raised on the general wishlist sub-forum about AAR aid and the usually heated discussions that followed, I'd say Razbam could "use" this feature to attract moer people in buying their F-15E.

 

Some people apparently seem to keep having extreme difficulties with AAR, despite how much they practice. Some even seem to have trouble staying plugged in probe/drogue modules, let alone staying connected to a boom. Of course there's also probably a group that just doesn't really feel like spending the time to learn (which is also fine). Anyways, Razbam could potentially attract both those group of players, if they add this option.

 

[Iron Sights]

It’s a great idea and I believe it would help those that do have trouble with AAR. I takes me a while to get back up to speed after I flown something that it is not AAR capable, so yes it would be helpful to bypass that step for some. Definitely would make the F-15E unique in that area and might attract more people, wouldn’t hurt anything for sure.

[Moosemermaid]

I actually think this is a very cool idea. The Mudhen will hold ALOT of fuel and has the potential for some lengthy times behind the tanker if it has bags on. Even someone like me that ,not to brag, is very good at tanking would love to just chill and watch it happen from the backseat. Just my 2 cents from someone that doesn't need it but is intrigued! 

[MAXsenna]

I won't oppose, but I believe you should stay on the pilot seat to see exactly what you should see.
I can "easily" fill up the A-10, but it's sort of guessing where to be, because I can't see the lights, and not a lot of the tanker unless I look up.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

I won't oppose, but I believe you should stay on the pilot seat to see exactly what you should see.
I can "easily" fill up the A-10, but it's sort of guessing where to be, because I can't see the lights, and not a lot of the tanker unless I look up.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

I don't quite follow you I think.

I can imagine playing/flying pretty much entire missions in SP mode from the WSO seat (apart from maybe the startup/take off and landing part).

If there was an option to have >F-15E<pilotAI (did Razbam share a name yet?) hook up with the tanker while you are in the back seat, why should you switch to the pilot seat?

As said, although I like doing AAR myself, I can also imagine chilling a moment in the backseat in VR, just admiring the view while AI pilot is doing AAR.

[MAXsenna]

I don't quite follow you I think.
I can imagine playing/flying pretty much entire missions in SP mode from the WSO seat (apart from maybe the startup/take off and landing part).
If there was an option to have >F-15E As said, although I like doing AAR myself, I can also imagine chilling a moment in the backseat in VR, just admiring the view while AI pilot is doing AAR.

Oh, I see. I was purely thinking about learning to accomplish AAR.
Then you'd have the wrong perception from the backseat.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[JB3DG]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:27 PM, sirrah said:

I don't quite follow you I think.

I can imagine playing/flying pretty much entire missions in SP mode from the WSO seat (apart from maybe the startup/take off and landing part).

If there was an option to have >F-15E<pilotAI (did Razbam share a name yet?) hook up with the tanker while you are in the back seat, why should you switch to the pilot seat?

As said, although I like doing AAR myself, I can also imagine chilling a moment in the backseat in VR, just admiring the view while AI pilot is doing AAR.

The F-15E does have flight controls in the rear IRL, so it should be flyable from the rear as well.

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, JB3DG said:

The F-15E does have flight controls in the rear IRL, so it should be flyable from the rear as well.

I know it does

I'm merely proposing an option, to be able to just sit back in the WSO or pilot seat, admire the view and have a cold beer while your AI crew member hooks up with the tanker.

This would also be ideal for those that would like to experience AAR, but lack the skills and/or don't have time to learn.

Edited May 12, 2023 by sirrah

[PD919]

Unfortunately I think the general attitude on this is "get gud".  Some campaigns do the AAR for you.

[shagrat]

Am 5.6.2023 um 01:43 schrieb PD919:

Unfortunately I think the general attitude on this is "get gud".  Some campaigns do the AAR for you.

The "general" attitude is basically the same half a dozen people who feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment.

It seems a lot of single player and PvE players would actually like something like this.

In my opinion it is ridiculous, as it should be easy to restrict and honestly, we already have similar helpers for Auto StartUp, Auto-rudder and Take-Off assist for the Warbirds. All client side. Unrestricted... not that anyone could even tell, if someone uses them or not.

[IanC58]

32 minutes ago, shagrat said:

The "general" attitude is basically the same half a dozen people who feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment.

It seems a lot of single player and PvE players would actually like something like this.

In my opinion it is ridiculous, as it should be easy to restrict and honestly, we already have similar helpers for Auto StartUp, Auto-rudder and Take-Off assist for the Warbirds. All client side. Unrestricted... not that anyone could even tell, if someone uses them or not.

what a load of tosh you talk "feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment" ... quite offensive

Edited June 25, 2023 by IanC58

[shagrat]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb IanC58:

what a load of tosh you talk "feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment" ... quite offensive

 

Endless circular discussions, lead to the only valid argument, after we could eliminate all (cheating, unfair, "gid-gud") pseudo-arguments. If this is an option that a server admin for a PvP server can explicitly block, there is not one argument left, other than "feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment".

Sorry, if you find that offensive, but I stand my ground. The group over and over going mad, whenever any helper or training aid for AAR is requested or discussed, could not yet bring any other argument, than "PvP refueling time to get back on station would be affected". And this is a none issue, if it has an admin option to block...  

Though technically Auto-StartUp,  Take-Off helper etc. fall into the same category.

Edited June 25, 2023 by shagrat

[PD919]

23 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Endless circular discussions, lead to the only valid argument, after we could eliminate all (cheating, unfair, "gid-gud") pseudo-arguments. If this is an option that a server admin for a PvP server can explicitly block, there is not one argument left, other than "feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment".

Sorry, if you find that offensive, but I stand my ground. The group over and over going mad, whenever any helper or training aid for AAR is requested or discussed, could not yet bring any other argument, than "PvP refueling time to get back on station would be affected". And this is a none issue, if it has an admin option to block...  

Though technically Auto-StartUp,  Take-Off helper etc. fall into the same category.

 

ED has a lot more important things to add and fix than making an auto AAR command.  Most assists are made because of hardware limits.  Not everyone owns rudder pedals.  A twist grip takeoff in a warbird is very hard.  Helos get a lot of assists for a similar reason.  I don't want to take the springs out of my joystick and rudder in order to have an authentic rotary experience as helos are secondary for me.  Some people are the opposite.  You can AAR in the cheapest HOTAS as long as your trimmed.

[IanC58]

2 hours ago, shagrat said:

Endless circular discussions, lead to the only valid argument, after we could eliminate all (cheating, unfair, "gid-gud") pseudo-arguments. If this is an option that a server admin for a PvP server can explicitly block, there is not one argument left, other than "feel threatened to lose a sense of accomplishment".

Sorry, if you find that offensive, but I stand my ground. The group over and over going mad, whenever any helper or training aid for AAR is requested or discussed, could not yet bring any other argument, than "PvP refueling time to get back on station would be affected". And this is a none issue, if it has an admin option to block...  

Though technically Auto-StartUp,  Take-Off helper etc. fall into the same category.

 

Im gonna stand my ground also ... you need to think out of your narrow and offensive opinion, for Instance,

if I or anyone chooses the WPO seat in a multicrew aircraft does that make them and under achiever with a loss of achievement in their role as part of a crew?

They or I would get a great view of the AAR process.

Having an AI pilot would not lose their sense of achievement as they have an Important and essential role as a WPO, do you condemn virtual pilots as under achievers for using A/P?  

Edited June 25, 2023 by IanC58

[shagrat]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb PD919:

ED has a lot more important things to add and fix than making an auto AAR command.  Most assists are made because of hardware limits.  Not everyone owns rudder pedals.  A twist grip takeoff in a warbird is very hard.  Helos get a lot of assists for a similar reason.  I don't want to take the springs out of my joystick and rudder in order to have an authentic rotary experience as helos are secondary for me.  Some people are the opposite.  You can AAR in the cheapest HOTAS as long as your trimmed.

And here we go again... Can you explain the existence of Auto-StartUp sequence with "hardware limitations" ? I would be intrigued to be enlightened.

[shagrat]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb IanC58:

Im gonna stand my ground also ... you need to think out of your narrow and offensive opinion, for Instance,

if I or anyone chooses the WPO seat in a multicrew aircraft does that make them and under achiever with a loss of achievement in their role as part of a crew?

They or I would get a great view of the AAR process.

Having an AI pilot would not lose their sense of achievement as they have an Important and essential role as a WPO, do you condemn virtual pilots as under achievers for using A/P?  

 

You totally misunderstood my point it seems: I absolutely want/would love to finally see any kind of help with AAR. AI pilot doing it for me, an adjustable "size" of the contact box, a magnetic  connection that helps keep connected, anything else than the stupid "unlimited fuel" ( with never changing weight and no fuel management) option.

I think of myself as part of the larger group, that would benefit from this kind of help.

My comment was pointed at the fact that there is no "general opposition" against this feature. It is a small group of very vocal customers that focus solely on competititive PvP that feel threatened by any kind of helper, would even prefer options to block rudder assist, auto start etc.

So to be absolutely clear: I welcome any kind of help, trainer feature to ease the absurd difficulty of AAR in DCS, as we, unlike real pilots, need to fumble with a keyboard ("Return pre-contact" - F1), lack peripheral vision, have no motion feedback, not everyone can buy VR to have better spatial awareness, and IRL the boom operator does not fight you, but helps you. Also in training I am sure they use radio comms and announce turns, etc.

As for ED's precious dev time, everything is already in the code: AI can refuel, lock controls is a trigger in the ME. I am pretty sure even the contact box around the basket/boom that snaps the boom to the receptacle is a value that can be a variable value from a slider in a module's special options.

[badger7966]

Oh fxxk.....thats a fantastic idea for the sausage fingered headbangers amongst us......PLEASE ADD THIS AS AN OPTION !!!

[Jackjack171]

7 hours ago, badger7966 said:

Oh fxxk.....thats a fantastic idea for the sausage fingered headbangers amongst us......PLEASE ADD THIS AS AN OPTION !!!

Oh god no!

[sirrah]

On 4/20/2023 at 9:58 AM, sirrah said:

(please don't turn this wish into another discussion about whether people should just practice more)

And as expected this kind request was utterly in vain 

 

I understand, a forum is meant for discussions and everyone is entitled to share his/her opinion, but this is a wishlist section. You don't have to agree, but if so, just rate the thread with one star or simply move on.. No need to make a fuss about it.

 

As for opposing because it would cost valuable dev resources: As others also mentioned, the functionality is already very much present (AI can perfectly well do AAR), so it shouldn't ask too much of the dev's really.

This could even be done as a SP only function, just like active-pause.

[Jackjack171]

5 hours ago, sirrah said:

And as expected this kind request was utterly in vain 

 

I understand, a forum is meant for discussions and everyone is entitled to share his/her opinion, but this is a wishlist section. You don't have to agree, but if so, just rate the thread with one star or simply move on.. No need to make a fuss about it.

 

As for opposing because it would cost valuable dev resources: As others also mentioned, the functionality is already very much present (AI can perfectly well do AAR), so it shouldn't ask too much of the dev's really.

This could even be done as a SP only function, just like active-pause.

With all due respect, you kind of open the door for discussion on any forum, as that's what its sole function is. We can have a discussion as long as there is no nastiness. There is more to this opposition than those that feel "threatened." I'm sure no one is actually feeling threatened by this wish. Some of us would just like to keep DCS as what it is advertised as "to offer the most authentic and realistic simulation of military aircraft, tanks, ground vehicles and ships possible". Anything else and DCS is on the skirt of becoming War Thunder or Ace Combat. Just look at the F-15E. Already there are Mods for it. IMHO, that's akin to going to a high-class restaurant and putting ketchup on Filet Mignon or the Chef's specialty. The Dev's of course being the Chef, we are saying "Your product is not good enough!" The chef would understandingly be offended! My point being, DCS is fine where it is. Dedicating easy modes is an enabler. Maybe yours and other intentions are for "fun" and innocent, but it will set a precedent that DCS may not come back from. Unfortunately, the crowds from those previously mentioned communities are flooding this one and demanding things from there. Most do not care and know nothing about the planes that they claim to love. Basic airmanship sucks from that. Some users can program and drop JDAMS and other sophisticated munitions all day long but cannot land correctly or fly a decent landing pattern. They take off with heavy loads and wonder why the rotation is off or why they cannot achieve a certain altitude or mach.  And forget formation flying (which AAR is mostly comprised of)! I would have no problem if Auto-start were to vanish...I came here for the most simulated realism that I can possibly get, this side of eternity! I truly get what you and others are saying, but this is a "tread lightly" moment. We should all be careful that this hobby or platform is not encroached upon, or we risk losing it to mediocrity. 

Just my 2 cents, thanks!

[shagrat]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Jackjack171:

Some of us would just like to keep DCS as what it is advertised as "to offer the most authentic and realistic simulation of military aircraft, tanks, ground vehicles and ships possible".

 ...and please don't skip this part of what DCS is, especially the hand holding part for novice players, or the adjustable experience ( cited from the same product description):

(...)"DCS World is fundamentally a deep, authentic and realistic simulation designed also to offer a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training. The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator of such complex weapons systems as the A-10C Warthog or the F/A-18C Hornet. The only next step is the real thing!"(...)

[Jackjack171]

3 hours ago, shagrat said:

 ...and please don't skip this part of what DCS is, especially the hand holding part for novice players, or the adjustable experience ( cited from the same product description):

(...)"DCS World is fundamentally a deep, authentic and realistic simulation designed also to offer a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training. The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator of such complex weapons systems as the A-10C Warthog or the F/A-18C Hornet. The only next step is the real thing!"(...)

I saw that. My interpretation of hand holding may be different. I was handheld my first year in the Navy, which just meant trained and always with a mentor. Hand holding isn't the same as "done for me." I did it all under guidance and had to learn. There's a big difference! Even if I'm wrong, I still stand on precedent. The more cheats given, the more expected! The next thing to happen will be sharks with laser beams on their foreheads...a little humor of course! If we were talking about an AI WSO giving you coaching from the backseat, kind of like Jester (without the banter), that would be great and more effective. ED or RB can do whatever they like as far as this goes, but I do recall another post where this idea of easy tanking was squashed. I'd hate for this beloved hobby to turn into the previously mentioned platforms. 

Thanks

 

[sirrah]

6 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

I saw that. My interpretation of hand holding may be different. I was handheld my first year in the Navy, which just meant trained and always with a mentor. Hand holding isn't the same as "done for me." I did it all under guidance and had to learn. There's a big difference! Even if I'm wrong, I still stand on precedent. The more cheats given, the more expected! The next thing to happen will be sharks with laser beams on their foreheads...a little humor of course! If we were talking about an AI WSO giving you coaching from the backseat, kind of like Jester (without the banter), that would be great and more effective. ED or RB can do whatever they like as far as this goes, but I do recall another post where this idea of easy tanking was squashed. I'd hate for this beloved hobby to turn into the previously mentioned platforms. 

Thanks

 

I understand your fear of DCS slowly turning into one of these other platforms. Personally, I don't think this will happen just by adding a few more "helpers". DCS will keep being a study level sim and I don't think the community would accept anything less. Adding some (let's say SP only) helpers/cheats, won't change the overall "deepness" of DCS I think.

 

As for the term "hand holding". When I joined the RNLAF, I too was guided by a mentor and later on, I mentored newcomers myself.

I agree, you learn the best by just doing it. Then again, sometimes watching someone doing something that is new to you, can also help. Reflecting this to DCS AAR: If you could just sit in the cockpit while AI is doing AAR, it might help you to more easily recognize positioning reference points when you try it yourself.

 

But, as mentioned before, what's wrong with DCS also being a platform where you can have a taste of AAR simulation, by sitting in the WSO seat and just admire the view (in VR)?

 

Btw: as you can also read in my OP. I love doing AAR myself. I almost mastered it in the Mudhen after just a few sessions. Still I wouldn't mind if others/newcomers had some sort of AAR assist.

Edited July 9, 2023 by sirrah
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