Cargo Aircraft in DCS and why we need it

[Devil 505]

So I will be the first to say I fly the F-18, Apache, and F-14 routinely, BUT, I am really looking forward to the C-130 coming out.  I have my days where I would gladly fill the role online of a chilled flight doing some AAR operations, combat cargo drops, or moving supplies to a base to beef up the front lines when the new dynamic campaign generator comes out.  This brings me to opening up for discussion, what other military cargo transports would the community be interested in and what roles would they use them for beyond just transporting cargo.  

I would like to kick it off with a new found favorite I have thoroughly enjoyed flying on MSFS and researching in general, the DHC-4 Caribou.  This aircraft would be one hell of a plane to bring to DCS.  It has one of the best short takeoff and landing capabilities for troop transport, para drops, cargo to hard to reach locations, and even air to air refueling in its infancy during Vietnam.  It was used by many nations including but not limited to Australia, Canada, and the US.  It has seen combat in many regions and is hailed in many ways the best cargo plane for austere environments needing aircraft that can land and take off from them.  It has the looks and sound of an old WW2 bomber and the rugged reliability of a C-47 and C-130. Slow, but one hell of a reliable aircraft and a cockpit only a connoisseur of vintage radial enthusiast would appreciate.  The first time I walked into her in VR and climbed up into the cockpit, I immediately got the Millennium Falcon vibe where Han and Chewy where the only ones who thought she was the most beautiful thing to fly.  I really hope to see this legend flying in DCS someday and think that its capabilities would be more than a benefit to DCS and the upcoming cargo and AAR roles that will follow after the C-130 is released.  Below is a video of me taking her up for a spin over Creech from start to finish followed with some historical photos during Vietnam. 

Let me know what other cargo aircraft you are interested in and hopefully this thread can turn into a foundation for ED and third party devs to see what we are fond of and what might be a good choice for future cargo aircraft.

null

null

[twistking]

Those vintage super rugged transports are the only "heavies" i'd be somewhat interested in. I think there are a few other iconic aircraft that are similar... C-119 for example...
Beautiful, interesting aircraft... and probably a joy to fly.

The obvious issue is gameplay... not sure how much DCS can offer for those aircraft, that the civil flight sims can't...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Give me that OV-1.
 

[streakeagle]

The argument against cargo aircraft could be used against trainers, sport biplanes, etc. But apparently trainers sell because DCS has a lot of them, including free mods.

The free C-130J and the OV-10A fit very well into the combat environment in ways that cannot be reasonably simulated modern anti-combat sims that prohibit weapons carriage/employment.

Transport helos are also fun and challenging to employ in the combat environment, so I am looking forward to the day when they are available in DCS, too.

Would a large number of utility aircraft with little or no weapons have a decent market, i.e. be profitable for payware? Probably not. But I am not opposed to any companies that want to create and sell those type of aircraft and in many cases would buy them.

[MickV]

I would fly the snot out of an An-2.

It was used as a bomber in several conflicts, and the short field takeoff/landing capability would make it something unique and totally different from a C-130 or other heavy cargo plane.

Bad weather, night operations, or flying in mountainous terrain would be a blast in an aircraft like that.

I realize that civilian flight sims can offer that experience, but since neither my SSD or wallet are bottomless, I would much rather have it in DCS. 

[upyr1]

I'd love to see the C-47 and V-22 

[draconus]

8 hours ago, twistking said:

not sure how much DCS can offer for those aircraft, that the civil flight sims can't...

DCS gives them the actual purpose and mission to fulfill, play a role in the operation, all with a risk of being shot down and pressure of failing the mission which can rely on your success.

[twistking]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

DCS gives them the actual purpose and mission to fulfill, play a role in the operation, all with a risk of being shot down and pressure of failing the mission which can rely on your success.

Fair enough. I forgot to mention that i look at it only from a SP/Coop perspective only as i have no interest in public PvP. I think your argument is more valid for those massive, public PvP scenarios, right?

That said, the dynamic campaign - if it ever marterializes - will maybe give more merit to those otherwise more "mundane" transport related sorties even in Sp/Coop.

[streakeagle]

C-130s and troop transport helos already provide useful functions in co-op.

I am hosting Vietnam/Cold War multiplayer missions right now where the C-130 can drop a complete set of crates for building a forward operating base for the helos or a whole bunch of infantry to help out with CAS. These same missions also permit AC-130 armament/operations. While it works best in a team/co-op environment, there is fun to be had flying a C-130 by yourself against the AI.

Single player/co-op missions can easily be scripted where the C-130 is at the heart of mission success and require flying low and/or evasively just like helo transport missions.

[twistking]

55 minutes ago, streakeagle said:

C-130s and troop transport helos already provide useful functions in co-op.

I am hosting Vietnam/Cold War multiplayer missions right now where the C-130 can drop a complete set of crates for building a forward operating base for the helos or a whole bunch of infantry to help out with CAS. These same missions also permit AC-130 armament/operations. While it works best in a team/co-op environment, there is fun to be had flying a C-130 by yourself against the AI.

Single player/co-op missions can easily be scripted where the C-130 is at the heart of mission success and require flying low and/or evasively just like helo transport missions.

I can agree with most of what you say, but i think even mentioning gunship operations is a bit of a stretch: The only similarity is with the airframe. A gunship would surely be an easier sell to a broader audience (not saying that a transport won't sell - it's just a bit more niche, i'd guess). I would also argue that cargo helicopters are more engaging for "average" combat sim flying, because the flight profile is more engaging. It's easier to come up with missions that throw a chinook pilot in crazy and daring raids... If you want to keep it somewhat realistic, a C-130's mission profile will always be less "daring" -whatever you wanna call it- than a transport heli's could potentially be.

Not trying to argue against fixed wing transports in DCS in case you wonder: I'd welcome a vintage transport plane. I just wanted to also make clear that i'm (personally) not completely sold on them... Just in case devs actually use these threads to gauge user interest.

Edited May 31, 2023 by twistking

[Devil 505]

16 hours ago, MickV said:

I would fly the snot out of an An-2.

I plan on trying to knock out a video flying this later on in MSFS for a simulated DCS experience. Been learning the start up process.  Very old school and all in Russian.  I will try to get it up tonight if possible.  I agree though, would love to see this one come to DCS.  Another great addition for transport operations.

[streakeagle]

7 hours ago, twistking said:

I can agree with most of what you say, but i think even mentioning gunship operations is a bit of a stretch: The only similarity is with the airframe. A gunship would surely be an easier sell to a broader audience (not saying that a transport won't sell - it's just a bit more niche, i'd guess). I would also argue that cargo helicopters are more engaging for "average" combat sim flying, because the flight profile is more engaging. It's easier to come up with missions that throw a chinook pilot in crazy and daring raids... If you want to keep it somewhat realistic, a C-130's mission profile will always be less "daring" -whatever you wanna call it- than a transport heli's could potentially be.

You obviously are not aware of the many difficult profiles C-130s and similar aircraft have had to fly throughout history. Read up on C-130s landing in Khe Sanh. How about dropping Sheridans or other cargo at low altitude, which has resulted in C-130s being lost during demonstrations and training. Flying at medium to high altitudes dropping stuff out of the back during daylight with low wind/good weather is easy. Flying from one base to another is easy. But there are a lot of variables that can be changed to make it hard. NOE at night in bad weather makes flying any aircraft difficult, having to accurately drop cargo or land on a short field runway is as challenging as dropping ordnance under such conditions. Imagine flying the Iran Hostage rescue mission. Imagine extracting special forces who use balloons to lift bungy cords so that the C-130s can snag them. The only limit is what can be scripted, and the DCS scripting engine is very flexible.

Cargo aircraft are never going to be the star performer and will never sell like F-16/F-18 high performance/high tech fighters. But there is plenty of room for them complete with fun/challenging campaigns as good as any other aircraft. The C-130J is a good first try to test the market and demonstrate what is possible. The free version is already very functional and allows for quite a few mission options beyond just cruising in a straight line between two points on a map.

Edited May 31, 2023 by streakeagle

[Bremspropeller]

More transport aircraft would be awesome. Especially if we had some cool bush airstrips to drop crates on/ into.

[upyr1]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:50 AM, twistking said:

i think even mentioning gunship operations is a bit of a stretch: The only similarity is with the airframe. A gunship would surely be an easier sell to a broader audience (not saying that a transport won't sell - it's just a bit more niche, i'd guess).

Cargo planes are a niche market, which is why I think there has to be the gunship version when possible. I know about the C-130 mission set and hope the C-130 expands the market. There is plenty of room in the digital sky for all types of aircraft 

[Devil 505]

On 5/30/2023 at 7:32 PM, MickV said:

I would fly the snot out of an An-2.

Finally got the AN-2 video knocked out.  Again, in the spirit of DCS, I flew her out of Batumi.  I know this is not the first time there has been a plea to bring this old girl to DCS.  I hope this video is another example of what DCS could bring to the cargo market. 

I plan on working a JU-52 video next flying out of Germany.  I think this one would be a great addition to the WW2 scene as well.  Plenty of history there to make a fine addition to zzz Germans in DCS.  

I will also do a DC-3 video.  I was hoping the C-47 would have been out by now by A2A sims but no dice.  I still feel like the C-47 is being developed as a full flying module by ED.  There have been multiple hints at it in the past Suntsag who posts the WW2 content for ED on YouTube.  I will link 2 of his videos below to prove my point.  Watch the the last few seconds of each one.  ED, if I am wrong in this assumption or I am starting a rumor that is far off base, please advise, or let the hype train continue.  

 

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

17 hours ago, upyr1 said:

Cargo planes are a niche market, which is why I think there has to be the gunship version when possible. I know about the C-130 mission set and hope the C-130 expands the market. There is plenty of room in the digital sky for all types of aircraft 

In the current state of things, I'd agree with you. If DCS some time manages to get the whole logistics stuff on board, things might change. I'm personally not too interested into gunships, as there's other modules for making things go boom already. I'm more into transporting stuff, logistics, throwing out a couple of paras, looking for a tiny dinghy adrift in the vast ocean or doing infil/ exfil stuff. That's where transports do widen the spectrum of missions in DCS. Niche maybe - maybe - but so are combat flight sims in general and if a transport pulls over a couple of civvies who want to fly a Herc under fire, then that's great.

I think people will have a lot of fun doing Khe Sanh (logistics under fire) or Kolwezi ops (dropping para commandos in a small scale conflict), which are just two examples for borader logistical or smaller scale commando style operations. The latters will be fun in combinaton with the light attack helos (Bo 105, Gazelle update, Kiowa).

You could even design humanitarian throw-out-a-bag-of-food missions with time constraints and triggers challenging and fun.

[upyr1]

6 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

the current state of things, I'd agree with you. If DCS some time manages to get the whole logistics stuff on board, things might change. I'm personally not too interested into gunships, as there's other modules for making things go boom already. I'm more into transporting stuff, logistics, throwing out a couple of paras, looking for a tiny dinghy adrift in the vast ocean or doing infil/ exfil stuff

There is a lot of potential for cargo planes once DCS has a good logistics system set up. No doubt about that. I am just saying that I hope the module includes the ac variants too. In the meantime I want to see Eagle add airborne drops. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by upyr1

[twistking]

6 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

[...]
I think people will have a lot of fun doing Khe Sanh (logistics under fire) or Kolwezi ops (dropping para commandos in a small scale conflict), which are just two examples for borader logistical or smaller scale commando style operations. The latters will be fun in combinaton with the light attack helos (Bo 105, Gazelle update, Kiowa).

You could even design humanitarian throw-out-a-bag-of-food missions with time constraints and triggers challenging and fun.

When seeing pictures of those vintage transports, i always think of some CIA shenanigans going down on a remote airstrip somewhere in Laos...

[reece146]

 

I'm jazzed about the Herc coming and would be interested in the DHC-4 as well. Full fidelity C-47 would be great. AN-2...

[Devil 505]

On 6/5/2023 at 6:48 AM, reece146 said:

I'm jazzed about the Herc coming and would be interested in the DHC-4 as well. Full fidelity C-47 would be great. AN-2...

Just did a quick video last night on the JU-52.  One we need in DCS for sure on the German WW2 side of the house.  Had several vital roles during the war and is a prolific aircraft that would compliment DCS very well.  Mine sweeper, medic role, cargo role, troop insertions roles.  Especially when we get paratrooper capabilities. For the sake of history, I took off out of Dessau Germany where she was conceived and flew her first flight.

[MickV]

On 6/2/2023 at 4:17 AM, Bremspropeller said:

I think people will have a lot of fun doing Khe Sanh (logistics under fire) or Kolwezi ops (dropping para commandos in a small scale conflict), which are just two examples for borader logistical or smaller scale commando style operations. The latters will be fun in combinaton with the light attack helos (Bo 105, Gazelle update, Kiowa).

You could even design humanitarian throw-out-a-bag-of-food missions with time constraints and triggers challenging and fun.

I love those sort of Brush War scenarios. A dodgy cargo plane trying to do a combat drop on some grass runway while being escorted/intercepted by some light attack aircraft and/or armed utility helos sounds awesome. 

On 6/6/2023 at 8:47 AM, Devil 505 said:

Just did a quick video last night on the JU-52.  One we need in DCS for sure on the German WW2 side of the house.  Had several vital roles during the war and is a prolific aircraft that would compliment DCS very well.  Mine sweeper, medic role, cargo role, troop insertions roles.  Especially when we get paratrooper capabilities. For the sake of history, I took off out of Dessau Germany where she was conceived and flew her first flight.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvbwcLd1S0Y

Great movie and one of the coolest scenes in it. 

[Bremspropeller]

On 6/2/2023 at 5:13 PM, twistking said:

When seeing pictures of those vintage transports, i always think of some CIA shenanigans going down on a remote airstrip somewhere in Laos...

Sumt'n like this?

If DCS could some time in the future give us a similar level of immersion, this would knock my socks off.

Spoiler

https://flightsim.to/file/54624/lima-site-85

[twistking]

10 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Sumt'n like this?

If DCS could some time in the future give us a similar level of immersion, this would knock my socks off.

  Hide contents

https://flightsim.to/file/54624/lima-site-85

[Thx1137]

On 6/2/2023 at 5:47 PM, Bremspropeller said:

In the current state of things, I'd agree with you. If DCS some time manages to get the whole logistics stuff on board, things might change. I'm personally not too interested into gunships, as there's other modules for making things go boom already. I'm more into transporting stuff, logistics, throwing out a couple of paras, looking for a tiny dinghy adrift in the vast ocean or doing infil/ exfil stuff. That's where transports do widen the spectrum of missions in DCS. Niche maybe - maybe - but so are combat flight sims in general and if a transport pulls over a couple of civvies who want to fly a Herc under fire, then that's great.

I think people will have a lot of fun doing Khe Sanh (logistics under fire) or Kolwezi ops (dropping para commandos in a small scale conflict), which are just two examples for borader logistical or smaller scale commando style operations. The latters will be fun in combinaton with the light attack helos (Bo 105, Gazelle update, Kiowa).

You could even design humanitarian throw-out-a-bag-of-food missions with time constraints and triggers challenging and fun.

I would prefer flying cargo or SAR maybe 80% of the time rather than shoot things all the time. So if DCS supported logistics that would be perfect for me. 

A C130 is in development and it looks like ED are adding some logistics support for that module so I'm excited about that. I love big planes. I'd love to have a good and fairly easy to use supply line gameplay. I think it would open up a world of strategic and tactical opportunities. But maybe we can't have that until at least part of the dynamic mission system is in. 

[Devil 505]

Well time for another one I think would compliment the DCS WW2 scene in the Pacific and even the Atlantic.  The Grumman Goose.  There were multiple variants to include SAR and recon roles.  This would be a good aircraft for the dynamic campaign if a pilot, AI or real, ejected and needed to be rescued.  It would also be ideal for spotting enemy Naval vessels and reporting them to fighter/bombers.  I for one would gladly take the role up to locate enemy ships on a dynamic online server where it would generate more missions for players.  Maybe do some sub spotting.  Let me know what you think.  Below is a simulated takeoff and island rescue of a downed pilot in the South Pacific.